Faith, hope, and charity. God does NOT punish!
Follows do not constitute endorsement.
Disclaimer: My views are speculative and contemplative; consult a priest
@Bug_Hall
@mcbridefamfarm
What does natural law say about spending your time on Twitter rather than providing for your family by earning enough money for rent?
Two paths in Catholicism:
1) Respect the conscience of each person and do not presume to know God's judgment or the limits of God's mercy.
2) Abusive and coercive Catholicism that seeks to dominate the minds of others.
Option 2 is often a vehicle for narcissism and ego
@ThomasPolega
HV is a sunk cost fallacy. The Church is afraid of saying "we need to change our previous teaching" out of fear of losing authority. The irony is that, by obstinately being unwilling to change their teaching, the Church is losing its authority. Doubling down hasn't worked.
It is sad that 90% of the online Catholic community is basically Corporate Catholic, giving stock answers to questions rather than really engaging and struggling with truth. Catholicism has so much to offer. It shouldn't be reduced to "what does the corporate handbook say?"
The Church's teachings on God's love were written by men who have zero experience of loving as a parent. One simply cannot know the love that a parent has for a child unless he has experienced it as a parent. They only experienced the child's side of that love, which can often
@Orchidoptera
@Bug_Hall
1) None of us is Jesus.
2) I am referring to Bug posting this inane story publicly as a faith flex.
3) I wonder if Bug spends as much time teaching his children about empathy and emotions as he does indoctrinating them into his fundamentalist cult faith? I am guessing "no."
@ghostowlredux
Ripp is a nutter who I wouldn't trust with anything or anyone. How he got so popular is beyond me. There is clearly a bunch wrong with the guy psychologically.
Scrupulosity isn't a bug, it's a feature. It's the logical conclusion if you believe that we can fall into hell at any moment with a single misstep. If that were true, why *wouldn't* you be scrupulous?
Every moment you spend thinking about hell, or "will this send me to hell?", is a moment that you could have spent giving your attention to God, love, and goodness instead. If we devote our time to thinking about hell, then we are not focused on God. The best thing we can do is
@IndianaBrunner
Imagine thinking that anything sinful can enter heaven.
Are you saved by Christ? Yes.
Is your soul still tainted by sin? Yes.
Can a sinful soul enter heaven? No.
Do sins need to be purged from the soul? Yes.
Are they purged during life? No.
Must they then be purged after death?
@UnchartedCatMan
& if the sexual act must be procreative, then do non-procreative "activities" even count? Obviously a backrub, no, but manual stimulation does? Why, because orgasm? So the analysis turns on the amount of pleasure? Seems like the definitions are created to reach the conclusion.
It seems like the very desire to receive the Eucharist means that one is not in a state of mortal sin (willingly and knowingly separated from God). Because if that was true, why would a person desire communion with God and Christ's body?
I very much enjoyed this conversation tonight!
Some additional thoughts:
As a parent, you don't really care if your kid gets everything right. In fact, you expect them to mess up. What you want to see is them trying their best. Not for your sake, but for their own sake. You
Transactional Catholics are those who think that their salvation is earned because they had the right "stuff" to find the truth, while all the "damned" non-Catholics...too bad for them.
They use faith as a transaction to avoid hell. They see everything as an instrument or
Everyone should read this:
Particularly the pic I posted. Misunderstanding mortal sin destroys people's love of God, because no one can love a vengeful father who punishes them for mistakes. In fact, if Satan wanted to undermine Christians, convincing
The Church should have never tried to proclaim that anything in this world is required for salvation. Not the sacraments, not being Catholic, none of it. Because doing so limits the power of God. Think about it - obviously nothing in this world is necessary for salvation!
If sex is "for" procreation, then sex is implicitly utilitarian. This makes children a utilitarian end rather than a byproduct of love. As if God intends us to be baby making machines because God needs more people (thanks
@PickenChews
).
Catholics spend more time defending why the Church is the One True Church than actually spreading God's message of love and charity. Their pride in finding the "truth" is blinding them to what it's really all about.
No, we don't need YouTube video
#837
explaining why
The faux "we're just trying to keep you from going to hell" condescending attitude used by many Catholics to judge people is repulsive. At least be honest and just say you're disgusted by how other people live, rather than framing it as (fake) compassion
@ZZZELCH84
Aquinas himself was a genius who, still, got a lot of things wrong. Unfortunately, neo-scholastics turned him into an irreproachable figure. But still, we can take some good from Aquinas if we are willing to leave the bad.
Scotus needs more love.
If you have a conservative personal view of Catholic tradition and the Magisterium, you are subjectively interpreting it just as much as someone who has a liberal view.
There is no human "view from nowhere." Human interpretation cannot, by definition, be objective.
If you
@ThomasPolega
But certainly "following conscience" is not a blank check to avoid mortal sin, right? So when would following one's conscience be a mortal sin? When it goes against the natural law written on our hearts? If so, how does one make that determination?
I don't understand why people think atheists will be morally culpable for unbelieving. If they knew God was real, they wouldn't be atheists. It makes no sense that anyone would be culpable for ignorance.
"But they should know!" But do they know that they should know? No. "But
Reminder that confession is for YOU, not for the Church. It is to clear YOUR conscience. You should confess when something is weighing on you, not just because a teaching shames you into confession. It's called Examination of Conscience, not Good Catholic Report Card Review.
1) Any sin can be forgiven if we repent.
2) Blasphemy against the Spirit is the only unforgivable sin.
These statements are contradictory unless we read 2 to mean that blasphemy is unforgivable *until* we repent.
3) Mortal sin is unforgivable until we repent.
4) But blasphemy
"Will I condemn myself if I receive communion today?"
An impossible question that carries the most dire consequences imaginable if you get it wrong. Why does the Church put the laity in this position of extreme existential anxiety? How can such a question be put on our frail and
How have Catholics not yet learned that you don't convert people by condemnation, rules, or admonition, but by love and tenderness? Show people the way of compassion, empathy, and understanding. You are not God. You do not judge. When will it sink in?
Love cannot exist under coercion. Fear of damnation to hell is a form of coercion. Ergo, humans can never love God so long as they fear damnation. True or false?
Jesus freed us from that dilemma by removing any coercion. Jesus proved that His love is freely given (no coercion).
@HippieReligious
It is not possible, nor right, to go around calling anything "mortal sin." Mortal sin requires subjective knowledge and consent. Stop throwing the term around so lightly. It represents a total willful separation from God.
Anyone who simply says "submit to the Church, just conform your conscience to the teaching bro," does not understand that you cannot escape having to make a personal subjective interpretation of the words. Your intellect is interpreting the words and forming conclusions, and your
@catholiccom
NFP is contraception. You're right, it does lead to absurd results if NFP is the only licit form of contraception. That's why it shouldn't be the only licit act of contraception.
If the Church does not publish a list of infallible dogma that must be believed to be Catholic, then it is by default up to the consciences of the laity to discern what is and isn't a required part of the faith.
If we are expected to be forgiving of those who sin against us, then shouldn't an infinitely merciful God be *at least* as forgiving and merciful towards us? Surely we cannot exceed God's mercy.
And God has infinite justice, but there is no justice to be served, because God
@UnchartedCatMan
I would say something much stronger than "won't be manageable." I would say that abstinence causes grave harm to the unity of marriage.
Butker: "I attend the TLM because I believe, just as the God of the Old Testament was pretty particular in how he wanted to be worshipped, the same holds true for us today"
How does one reach that conclusion? Where does Jesus say anything like that? Why would God demand Latin?
Butker (sportsball kicker): "We need to stop pretending that the ‘church of nice’ is a winning proposition"
This says a lot. One, they don't aspire to even be nice. That's quite something. Two, it's zero sum. Winning or losing. Winning what? It's a deluded crusade mindset.
Left brained, narrow, logical thinking is a useful tool, but it disregards the holistic knowledge of the right brain. What Feser derides as "feeling" can more accurately be described as intuition that takes into account factors that the left brain cannot necessarily easily grasp.
@forthequeenbvm
A lot of them have misplaced pride (a sin), wanting to show off how *they* discovered the truth. They need more humility. Religion isn't a zero sum game. It's not a competition.
This Feser sophistry is what is wrong with much Catholic thinking. It rests on a false presupposition that to be Catholic means to believe that the Church cannot err. But the Church herself acknowledges that it can err.
Check out my episode tonight on Kevin Nontradicath's YouTube channel! We had a great discussion about a variety of topics. Super nice and sincere guy. I enjoyed it greatly!
Every fertile period skipped for NFP/celibacy is an egg that the woman will never get back. She has a limited lifetime supply. It's hard to say that deliberately letting an egg go to waste is more "open to life" than having sex with a condom during the fertile period.
Celibate
When infernalists say, "if everyone gets saved, what's the point in being good?" This reveals their egocentric motive for doing good - to get heaven and avoid hell. You should instead do good for the sake of good, not for a reward. Parable of the vineyard workers Matthew 20: 1–16
In every situation, move towards goodness. Like Jesus carrying His cross, keep moving towards the light. One step at a time. Even in - and especially in - suffering.
If so many ppl are going to hell for sexual sins, that doesn't quite square with the lackadaisical attitude of the Church. If it's true that masturbation sends ppl to hell, then the Church should protest it with the same fervor as abortion. But it's more "eh don't talk about it."
I am now firmly convinced that mortal sin requires subjective knowledge (belief) of the wrong. Meaning, as long as your intentions are good, there is no mortal sin. Meaning, putting your trust in God and your conscience is all that is needed and asked of us.
Apparently, scrupulosity is a sin too. "Sorry, you cared *too much* about not sinning. Off to hell with you!"
This is a comical and tragic Christian way of life. A tightrope over hell. And if you try too hard, in you go!
Can the Church pls re-state mortal sin as the "knowing and deliberate rejection of God" and save everyone a lot of scrupulosity? If you desire God and orient your self to God, you don't have to worry about not being saved. That's the bottom line. No? So why all the scrupulosity?
You know, from the OT, David sleeping with a loyal warrior's (Uriah) wife, and then ordering Uriah to be placed in the front battle line and abandoned to the enemy to be killed, so that David could marry his wife (widow) is one of the most despicable acts one can imagine. Yikes.
Existence is an idea in God's consciousness. We are also finite instances of consciousness (created in His image). If creation were somehow a different "substance" than God's consciousness, it would exist independently of God, which is impossible.
Existence is interchangeable
If you think that God will condemn you for doing something you don't believe is wrong, then that will inevitably breed resentment towards God, because by necessity it will mean that you think God is condemning you for a wrong reason. This undermines your view of God as "all good"
To all scrupulous Catholics: mortal sin requires knowledge of the gravity and wrongness. As long as you fundamentally examine your actions and do what you think is right, there is no mortal sin. In other words, all you need to do is order your actions to God.
Everybody - left and right - thinks they are a justice warrior. That somehow *they* figured out the true balance of worldly justice. AKA playing God. But doing that only perpetuates division and negative emotion. To change the world, first be okay with the world as it is.
If you can say “yes” to God, but still lose salvation through unintentional mortal sins, then something other than your free will is impinging on God’s power of salvation. That cannot be right, because we know that Jesus’s sacrifice was sufficient.
Catholic life: Whoops, you had a moment of weakness or doubt about what is really wrong and right? Sorry, Jesus just dropped you off the saved list until you rush to confession to make a possibly insincere confession for something you're not even sure is actually damnable.
@PickenChews
@ThomasPolega
I think it is also the fear of opening the floodgates. Meaning, if sex doesn't need to be directly tied to procreation, then all sex is okay. I guess the Church doesn't have confidence that it could credibly draw a line elsewhere (I think it could).
@Bug_Hall
Narcissistic indicators on your part, probably some other stuff going on too. You have some big drama playing out in your head where you're the hero/victim against all the villains of the world. Delusions of grandeur.
Also, never leave a child alone in a car.
If we must ALWAYS follow our conscience, then where does that leave a Pope who genuinely thinks that tradition got something wrong? What happens when the Magisterium and Papal conscience collide?
Is the primacy of conscience simply relativism in practice?
We'll discuss these
Earliest mankind would have had vague memories of existence before self-awareness. An eternal bliss of life. The same bliss of life in the womb. These vague memories are imprinted deep in our consciousness, always pulling us back towards that feeling. This seems like a taste of
@ThomasPolega
@Cindy_Wooden
It is unjust that there is not a definitive list. It causes grievous confusion and dispute among the laity. Infallibility creep has been a real problem.
Finally, see how Feser gaslights Catholics. "No, you aren't actually thinking when you disagree with the Church. You are just having wrong feelings." This childish, left brained view of "thinking" is flawed and out of date.
@ChrisStefanick
I couldn't believe the negative Catholic reaction you got from that innocuous post! But also, I feel deeply sorry for Butker and his distorted views. Trads can be way, way off the mark of what Christianity is about. Looking forward to your talk.
Salvation cannot be contingent on getting the right answer to a specific question of faith or ethics, b/c that would mean salvation is contingent on cognitive ability, which is largely out of our control. Rather, God wants every person to give an honest effort towards goodness.
Why are Caths so scared of the modernist boogeyman? Why wouldn't God use modern philosophy just like everything else? Why would God's plan stop at the Scholastics? I don't think most people have thought this through. They're operating out of fear. Why fear? Would God be afraid?
@briankeepsworth
Empty words. One always has personal opinions and a presupposed worldview.
JPII certainly imposed his personal views on the Church, and Ratzinger was heavily complicit in that.
I feel like this is a picture of my mind, except my mind is way less orderly. While this drawing is incredible, surely our faith was not meant to be this. We need to untangle the knots. I need to start by untangling the knots in my own mind.
Classical theism (God is "to be" itself) is nonsensical until you adopt idealism - the idea that reality is fundamentally consciousness. Existence is to exist as an idea in God's mind. It makes no sense to talk about existence as some sort of separate "thing" distinct from God.
Anyone who claims to make absolute moral judgments based on purely natural law reasoning is playing God, because only God can know God's intentions for creation. By doing that, one elevates himself to the level of God. Not good! Be humble
If the Catholic teaching on hell is subject to so much discussion and disagreement, then how can we even start to talk about mortal sin and what mortal sin means?
If God doesn't hold children accountable for sins b/c they simply don't know any better, why would that change at an arbitrary man-made age? God never stops judging us as He judges children - with compassion & forgiveness, because we still don't know any better.
"Culpable ignorance" is an impossibility. To say that someone "knew that they should have known better" can only terminate in invincible ignorance; otherwise it is an infinite regress.
Also, we do not have free will. Our will always seeks the good. Freedom of choice actually
When ppl talk about the physical world, what they really mean is "the experience given to us." What is physical matter? It's information that informs our experience. There is no "physical vs spiritual." That's code for "what we have access to, and what we do not."
Original sin is probably something like the first time a self-aware human had an insight of guilt: "Oh...I shouldn't have smashed Grug's head to steal his meat." The snake would be the voice in the head saying "nah, ignore your guilt, you determine what's right and wrong."
All
Does anyone else find it weird how many Catholics say "yeah the Catechism says it, but that's not infallible."
[Proceeds to cite a random encyclical from 1879]
"HERE is the real teaching"
If we can't trust the Catechism, something has gone wrong in our religion.
Christ transforms suffering into hope. Every time you think "the world is unjust," that is your soul being pulled to goodness aka God. That is your deep knowledge that things should be different. Christ tells us we can rest assured that the goodness will come.
It's a myth that we are discrete, individual beings. We are social creatures. Our very existence IS relational; existence is never discrete and insular. You cannot separate your self from your experience.
We don't exist "in here" with a world "out there." You ARE the relation
Re Olympics:
1) God isn't injured by anything humans can do. Everything will be okay, even with the mocking of God.
2) My Christian self feels offended at the mockery and indulgence of pride.
3) My Christian self also understands that I have no right or ability to say that