I realise my lived experience and comments regarding “Physician Associates” would generate some interest (kind, probing, or otherwise).
I am but a cancer patient on treatment, so tread lightly.
And apologise to no media chats please, I simply do not have enough energy. 💙
I have the misfortune to see a PA today for my hospital appointment. The clinic nurse introduced them as a doctor, he never said he is not a doctor. I am naturally unimpressed, but feel trapped in the situation. I will be writing to PALS and the consultant team.
How easy is it to change organisations or battle against group think from within?
Feel free to read the below from
@TheKingsFund
on
@RCPhysicians
Also?
It’s possible to turn a behemoth around
If I put my mind to it?
It. Will. Turn.
To - hopefully- new beginnings 😎
So after a night of almost no sleep, I have given this some reflections.
I have thought many times that I should have just walked out and regretted that I did not. I was too shocked by the audacity.
1/
I have the misfortune to see a PA today for my hospital appointment. The clinic nurse introduced them as a doctor, he never said he is not a doctor. I am naturally unimpressed, but feel trapped in the situation. I will be writing to PALS and the consultant team.
I have the misfortune to see a PA today for my hospital appointment. The clinic nurse introduced them as a doctor, he never said he is not a doctor. I am naturally unimpressed, but feel trapped in the situation. I will be writing to PALS and the consultant team.
Me in Year 4 Medical School, sitting in with GP, having already had an intercalated degree watching first year PA student with an English Literature degree doing GP clinic in their first week of their PA course…
Oh, I also do not feel like doing an education session to tell them what type of tests I need going forward. Or reiterate everything as it’s on the last damn letter from my oncologist. 🤬🤯🤯🤯🤯
The consultant, whom I had never met, has said the PA did introduce themself as a PA. This is in direct contrast to my lived experience and as such, they are accusing me of lying. They are taking the word of the PA against me the patient.
2/
So yes, just really sad and unable to sleep. When I don’t sleep, my pain is worse. So all in all, just traumatic.
I will now try to start my day. Thank you for listening.
9/ final
Thank you for your support. Thank you also to those who share their experiences.
PALS had emailed me back to say their would “need to seek advice on this”, so let’s see.
1/
So after a night of almost no sleep, I have given this some reflections.
I have thought many times that I should have just walked out and regretted that I did not. I was too shocked by the audacity.
1/
I just feel really sad. The feeling of being violated. Sure, they did not touch me, but they have read my notes and I do not feel they have a right to.
It made me feel raw and sad and ashamed somehow.
5/
I would have you know that being someone who is BAME and had trained and worked with CNS/ANP/Adv Rad, I am anything but.
I am utterly disappointed to how the reply letter is worded and the accusatory tone used.
6/
The consultant being the “supervisor” of this PA was NOT in clinic, but claimed the PA had worked within their scope.
Yet, I do not see any attached document to state what their scope was.
4/
I didn’t want to make a scene, a natural cultural tendency perhaps. Also that I was not feeling my best, I am after all someone with advanced incurable cancer. I have symptoms burden - which is why I am in this clinic to “follow-up”.
3/
I had written to PALS and the consultant team. I will write again if I don’t get a response.
I don’t even know what response I am hoping to get. Perhaps just for them to acknowledge how distressing it has been? I doubt they would learn to reflect how wrong it all is.
7/
.
@wesstreeting
PAs are not qualified to give nutrition advice.
I am touchy about this. With my cancer diagnosis last year, in just under 3 months, I have gone from a bubbly 50kg to 38kg.
My (slightly scary) dieticians managed to avoid NG feed me.
This ain’t for PA to advise
@LBC
@wesstreeting
@ShelaghFogarty
@GlobalPlayer
I have spent 4 years training to be a Dietitian - an AHP specialising in diagnosing nutrition related conditions & giving advice to support these. Is a physician associate now taking over my job too if the only example of the niche they fill is to talk to patients about nutrition
In my letter, I have declared my interest about my advocacy against the PA project. And my wish that I should never be attended by them in this trust.
8/
The consultant further stated that the x-Ray was not ordered by the PA, yet showed no evidence so.
There were no other team members in clinic at the time, so 🤷🏻♀️
3/
After the introduction of “hi, I am x, I looked after the y service”. I looked up and realised what this person is.
What should I have done at this point? I should have just said no. I regret deeply that I did not.
2/
I had a good relationship with this clinic and had great care experience throughout previously. I did not want to break this relationship, as it is likely that I would need ongoing input due to the nature of my illness.
4/
Some of my ex-colleagues follow me and a few of my ex-patients too.
I certainly would not make up the fact that I am an advance cancer patient.
My experience of PA through my diagnosis and this encounter are mine. The former reported to the PCN and this to the Trust.
1/
I apologise for not speaking out more about the flawed PA project when I was a working Oncologist. COI as my department uses them.
I remain limited becos of my healthcare needs.
The Oncology Hospital that I receive care from has them, so does the local hospital Trust.
1/
There is nothing more distasteful than white senior doctors invoking racism to shut down discussion of PAs
Dr Gray didn’t once fear for his life during the August riots, and now he weaponises that vile racism for his own purposes
And provided no citations, but mostly the racism
No
@JeanetteRCR
, it is not as you claimed “devoid of factual info”.
As a cancer patient and once briefly colleague at Mount Vernon, I am pleading with you that from personal experience that the whole PA project is flawed and must not continue to run even more wild.
Please.
Well. In a surprising turn of events, the UK’s Academy of Medical Royal Colleges (
@AoMRC
) today responded to mounting concerns about the substitution of doctors with PAs by ‘spontaneously’ urging
@wesstreeting
&
@NHSEngland
to commission a 'rapid review' of their safety. 1/n
There needs to be a conversation, with all “stakeholders” about whether or not we need Oncologists to look after patients with cancer.
@ThanksCancer
@macmillancancer
Cos it seems some people think NOT in this G7 country… 🤔
I am not eloquent with my words, and I don’t have a platform, so to speak.
Yet, I will continue to speak up about the flawed PA projects and the continued persecution of the Govt against medical qualified doctors.
I have nothing to lose, as someone with advanced malignancy.
GP colleagues- please look after yourselves! You have been instructed now - eat your lunch, have your break, do NOT overwork. You MUST avoid getting yourselves admitted to hospital. Take care of each other, have protein bars and wear your cardigans. 💙💙
@DoctorAngry
It is courtesy to see consultant colleagues - but I am not against seeing others, and had done so throughout with locally employed doctors and resident doctors in their specialty training, or chemo ANP.
As an ex-breast Oncologist, I do not believe it is acceptable for my patients. Why should patients with breast cancer not be operated on by trained qualified breast surgeons?
It is particularly insulting on
#BreastCancerAwarenessMonth
@BreastCancerNow
- please advocate
@GMCharlatan
There is an unnatural obsession to portray themselves as if they have a protected characteristic for just being PA.
I don’t quite understand it. Last time, it was someone using the argument of women not allowing to study medicine. Now it’s comparing with the Racist riots. Why❓
I hate this false equivalence so much.
Because Resident Doctors do not start in PGY3 if they have had a previous degree. It just makes absolutely no sense.
Also the first 2 years of med school is not basic sciences, I vividly remember dissection which wasn’t anything “basic”.
This from our Reddit friend a slide pack from
@profjimspeaks
'PAs practice medicine': Therefore PAs must be educated, like doctors, to practice medicine
The false equivalence with undergrad medicine and PA course is absolutely wild - I can see how it got into
@NHSE_WTE
Having an incurable diagnosis is hard. Knowing that you would miss many of your child’s future milestones is very hard.
So, I would urge you to support the many good research institutions in the UK, as well as the hospices and cancer charities. Please.
4/FINAL
Post F2 unemployment is becoming an increasing problem, whilst primary care is on it’s knees.
It’s time we let locally employed resident doctors into primary care.
No one can complain about the supervision requirements when MAPs with <1/3 the training are running loose
This maddens me so much - I am a clinical oncologist. My child, whom had at least done a heart dissection in Year 6, would not have claimed that they are comfortable in offering thoracic radiotherapy just because they are my child and had watched me doing some RT planning.
1/
Does this come with an immediate cessation of job ads and “locum” for PAs in GP surgeries nationwide?
And would that encourage other Colleges to admit their flaws in allowing the demedicalisation of their Specialty?
Some of my ex-colleagues might not entirely agree with my stance on supporting our resident doctors and my advocacy against the PA project. Nonetheless, when you are walking my journey, you would appreciate how crucial it is for me and many like me.
3/
@ExplosiveEnema2
It seems to be that at some point, some doctors have unilaterally decided that medical degrees are no longer needed to manage cancer patients. Cos we are not important, it’s just cancer.
@LittlePersonDoc
I hadn’t seen my usual consultant walking in… this is one of my “complaints” that this individual should have been supervised as they are not autonomous.
So people using protected characteristics as any parallel to the discussion on the PA project failure is extremely OFFENSIVE.
Those whom have experience bullying and/or conscious/unconscious bias and/or discrimination SHOULD know better.
5/
I am not a lawyer. I am a retired dr.
I am now a cancer patient.
Have been asking questions about indemnity and who takes responsibility for a while in relations to PAs. Esp the criminal responsibilities for radiation exposure/IRMER.
This feels like an inevitability.
🐓🏡🐔
When one had not actually worked frontline, one does not get to comment on what they had only imagined and not lived experience.
When said that they don’t want to do anything differently, because doctors work within strict scope and hence do not overreach for the safety…
"The medical profession is locked into a way of life... they are deeply conservative."
Leading clinician Prof Sir John Bell tells
@amolrajan
and
@bbcnickrobinson
that Wes Streeting will have to face down the British Medical Association to reform the NHS.
🎙️ The Today Podcast ⬇️
If you have a genuine concern with a patient wanting to see a doctor about a medical issue, then respectfully I cannot agree.
Is that “elitism”? I do not think so. I would like to believe that this is basic right in this country.
3/ FINAL
This has happened in more than one place.
Why? They say it’s because “no staff” or “juniors don’t want to do Oncology”.
It’s not entirely true but this is the lie some senior oncologists and management/cancer alliance bots propaganda machine spread.
@geshNHS
remove this job advert immediately!
THIS IS NOT SAFE FOR CANCER PATIENTS!
No experience necessary in oncology ?
What local medical training and exams would a PA have to undergo to allow them to do this work ?
Where is the local training plan?
@ClinOncDoc
@parthaskar
I understand that people can feel differently about issues, but please do not assume that you have any rights to belittle my personal experience.
That is just mean and overall disappointing. And you are exactly what you call “bullies”.
2/
There are a few whom by virtue of birth had never experienced these, and their use of this type of parallel is just simply disgusting.
You do not know, you cannot know and please just stop. Ask ChatGPT (or others AI app) to find another example.
Thank you.
6/ END
Nonetheless, after my lived experience as a patient with PA in primary care and subsequently with PA in specialist clinic (not onc). I feel that I must speak out a little, despite having no platform.
I am not part of the BMA, DoctorsVote or any other group.
I am a patient.
2/
I have looked after a few patients “my age-ish”. Despite my expertise, walking through it myself is no less painful, challenging and chaotic at times.
Hence, there is no reason why we should settle for less.
2/
@UKGastroDr
I think the premise is wrong.
There is not a need for physician associate but there is every need to increase workforce, primarily resident doctors.
For existing ones, there needs to be a solution such as voluntary redundancy or offer to assist in re-train applications…
This is notable and significant for those who keep saying earning potential blah blah…
Because yours truly had been forced to retire at year 20.
Which means had it been me, I would be still at a loss to a PA, despite med school, MRCP, MSc, FRCR and literally dying as a result
Any question of Drs’ greater earning potential than PAs needs to be put to bed.
If a doctors jumps through every hoop as quickly as possible they STILL won’t out earn PAs after 20 years!
Doctors should be earning much more than PAs. I think few would disagree.
@wesstreeting
As a patient, I carry an A4 sheet of paper with me that tells people about me, with my treatment details.
I am increasingly thinking that I should add that I don’t want to be scoped and anaesthetised by a non-doctor. 🤔
Now, I get lots of DMs
But this has to be in the TOP 5 WORST❗️
‘Unhappy vocal minority’ - how dare you raise concerns?
‘We need to be careful, but only while we’re under the microscope’
Storm analogy again when in fact a tsunami is coming 🫠
@SheffieldHosp
@MajorKirsten1
?
Genuine questions 🙋🏻♀️
Do all the PA defending doctors have private medical insurance?
Or do they assume they won’t get sick and needing NHS care?
Or do they assume just because they are doctors, they will get preferential care?
It should be obvious that I have various protected characteristics - I am not ethnically white British, I am not a man, I am not fully able bodied with my advanced cancer. I am also now retired and hence economically inactive.
4/
After my angry phrase, I have been trying to express calmly. Asking intentional questions.
I do not lump other advanced practice individuals with PA, this is a separate discussion.
Yet, when people start using conspiratorial languages, I am very concerned.
3/
@parthaskar
Not sure I entirely agree. Clinical tasks could be blood taking or a lap chole, which means the scope could be as wide as someone writes it. Yet as they are not trained to take risk, that means responsibility fall on the doctor supervising them. Isn’t this exactly where we are? 1
@ItsnotrightUK
Your assumption is that PAs are above nurses - I do not agree.
From the role’s original intention, as doctor’s assistants, band 4.
I note that for AfC, that’s not what an MSc would fall. But a nurse with a previous MSc would not automatically be elevated to band 7.
@kaydaustin
We learn, to live day by day. Not booking holiday 6 months in advance. Adding “if” to any future plan. Invitations for gathering are planned cycle by cycle. And we hope.
At work, I respond to all A&G request from GP colleagues. This is just simple respect.
An unpopular opinion, but PAs are not equivalent to ACP/ANP.
Taking advice from PAs means taking on all responsibilities and risks.
@DrEilidhMaria
@wesstreeting
@LBC
Thank you. I think it shows clearly that Wes does not fully understand the PA issue. My concern is someone (maybe more than one person) must be feeding him these snippets of info (some clearly not fully correct).
@cannula_service
I am really struggling with the GMC’s response. Feeling really sad and could not really detect any genuine remorse of how their push of PAs has directly contributed to the patient’s death.
Just want to once again say how sorry we are of the patient’s passing.
Thank you for your support. Thank you also to those who share their experiences.
PALS had emailed me back to say their would “need to seek advice on this”, so let’s see.
1/
@mancunianmedic
@bmj_latest
I am sorry, are you saying that comparing the SoMe discussion on the lack of safety and national scope of PAs with the Racist Riot in August “interesting”?
Or the example of the witch hunt play? Or A-level US politics? I am not quite sure which is relevant in any sense.
🤔🤔
I do, I really do appreciate people doing
#WearItPink
day to increase awareness.
But please also discuss:
-Breasts Surgeons not others assessing patients
-Reduce wait for surgery/recon/risk-reduction
-Reduce wait for systemic treatment/and esp Radiotherapy
-Care post-treatment
@parthaskar
Yet, if scope is carefully defined, it’s no different to a senior HCA, a band 4 job.
I would perhaps add their scope must be rigorously defined and they must be supervised in their tasks. This adds protection to both them and the doctors supervising them.
2/
@DrEilidhMaria
Is it “I don’t want to be a doctor but do everything they do without having the full knowledge, qualifications and most importantly the responsibilities”?
There should be a pause, a review of limiting scope, and most crucially re-scaling their pay to AFC band 5 at best.
I am declaring COI… things I have personal stakes in
- private school and VAT
- private health insurance
- covid enquiry and how the Trust had treated me
- inheritance tax
- terminal illness / palliative care / assisted dying
- healthcare and PA disaster
- cancer care
1/2
When I was a surgical PRHO (yes, you know, me old), there was no PA or SCP.
My SHO would grace the ward her presence at 8am (with army reg) and then go off to theatre. If I were to finish ward jobs early, I could also swing by theatre/clinic.
Those were the days. 🥹🥹🥹
Surgical nights have been by far my fave shifts so far 😂 unsure if that’s controversial but it’s nice to get the chance to actually do stuff and assist in theatre (PAs assist in the day)
Why these 6?
What’s wrong with them?
What are you expecting to achieve by the overhaul?
Or just same thing different style fonts?
What is more important than recruitment and retention of qualified staff in the right service?
What would more pencil pushing achieve? 💙
Whilst I am glad that someone’s cancer “journey” has gone well, please also spare thoughts for all those who are struggling and suffering without the same support system and resources.
Love,
Cancer patient + ex-cancer doc
I admire people with terminal cancer and remains economically active functional being in the society.
Some days, I am not even functional being in my own body.
You see my profile pic, that’s not what I look like now. That’s a work pic.
#Cancerdiary
@Ask_foradoctor
It is also how the course is “sold” by the university. PA is one of the “graduate career” as stated on their website.
It is a sad state of affairs.
The statement should be…
PAs are not qualified, they are not doctors. PAs completed PA study, but some might not have passed their national exams. They are also not nurses, nurses are qualified in their roles as nurses.
Right from the start of the
#PAproject
, they have been keen to present PAs as better than nurses
Here's how one GP practice explained to their patients why they were hiring PAs to replace GPs
@Not_A_FT
Could it be that the psych consultant doesn’t actually care about the mental health and physical health of their patients? 😱
I can’t explain it otherwise.
I have so much issues particularly the analogue to digital.
Yes, NHS IT is crap, so are phones, bleeps, WiFi. COWs are deadly or dead, no hot desks for e-prescribe or e-order anything.
But just investing in IT, AI, smart tech is CHEAP talk.
Invest in PEOPLE + INFRASTRUCTURE
I am a Labour supporter and glad they won
And i realise the need in political comms to repeat messages ad nauseam
But if i see one more Labour spokesperson say
"3 big shifts. Hospital to Community. Analogue to Digital. Sickness to Prevention"
I will smash the TV/Radio
I should add that they were slightly scary but very encouraging.
I am now back to my normal weight and am no longer troubled by pressure sores.
Thank you!
@parthaskar
Not entirely scope, but no misrepresentation in clinical attires. Such as no scrubs + steth + RCP lanyard. Or scrubs + RCS lanyard. Similarly no unclear work title on badge/letter/clinic list/ door. Thanks.
Got sent a letter today to say my appointment had been “brought forward”.
From 10:45 slot to 11:00 slot on the same day.
How is it brought forward? Is it a back to the future scenario?
I respect that you *MUST* understand IRMER, but
Training
Indemnity
And most crucially who takes responsibility - who goes to jail if something goes wrong?
(Yes, Sub-tweet as usual)
Spending time on Twitter as waiting for the bathroom to be free.
@drmattuk
@ExplosiveEnema2
Some consultants are just lazy. I am sorry but it is true. They like delegation and be a CEO of their service, they do not actually like their patients. They pursue their portfolio career or other interests, why see “simple” patients? I do not agree, every patient has a story.
Thank you
@UofGlasgow
for bestowing upon my mum the honorary degree of doctor of the University of Glasgow. This has brought her so much joy in the final beats of her life. Janey is so honoured, and I am so immensely proud of her. Congratulations Doctor Godley.
Ashley Storrie
#Cancerdiary
I can’t say the current round of treatment is going brilliantly. Physically, I am much worse than before I started.
Mentally, I am just feeling so sad for myself having to go through it all. It is remarkably tiring.
Twitter is providing a lot of relief though.
Because I am a trouble-maker, clearly just attract troubles by existing
Some of these topics I talk more, some much less
I do however have a lot of issues of people talking about things when they have no stakes, they just brag without any knowledge or reason.
So tired
2/2
1st day of secondary school - wasn’t sure I would still be alive for it when I was diagnosed last April.
I am very pleased to have made it. It meant so much to me to be taking my child to school just like every other year prior on the 1st day.
#CancerDiary
And what for? Beyond some agenda of promoting and positioning PAs to replace others?
I doubt the princess would accept this during her journey, so why should any other patients?
@medicalmodelbri
Sick and vulnerable children should not be coerced into thinking that it is ok to see an unqualified staff when they are needing medical help. This is wilful neglect and abuse in my book.
@ExplosiveEnema2
Notice that she did not say “No, they haven’t gone to medical school.”
She proclaimed that they have been “trained” in the areas they are working in. Define “trained”?
I have done about 16months FTE of uro-oncology in my training. I would NOT say I am an uro-oncologist. 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️