Husband. Dad. Greater Phoenix Area Land Investor. +- 7,500 Acres planned/being planned for up to ~17,000 homes/apartments plus large-scale employment sites
@unusual_whales
I don’t believe the $50M offer.
Roughly 40 homes would fit on that land based on surrounding home sizes.
Even if $1M homes, homes themselves would be worth $40M. Typically finished lots are +- 25% of the home price. So finished it’d be $10M. Land = that less costs to finish
“How can they build so many homes in the desert? They need AC… that’s so unsustainable”
AZ has 14th lowest residential energy consumption per capita in US - despite having larger homes.
It’s much more energy efficient to cool a home than it is to heat one.
Lennar,
#2
builder in US by volume, reported today that they have lowered pricing & increased incentives in response to high rates, but now they have “found the market” in all metros & are selling new homes at a good pace again… Gross Margin dropped 570 bps, but it’s still 21.2%
@TheStalwart
No income tax, a lot of people there count their days to make sure they meet the minimum. Fly fishing guide told stories about NYC hedge fund & PE types would would ask to stop & use their credit card to buy a water or something, building up the evidence that they’re residents
They get a lot right, but here’s what YIMBYs get wrong:
-Most people want to live in a SFR house, not in an apartment
-Most are OK with driving
-Eliminating zoning doesn’t mean instant supply. There’s still long process of planning & engineering
-Some issues are federal (flood)
IMO 6 things make a sub $300k home nearly impossible today unless it’s a manufactured home:
1. Density - at least in PHX, the smallest detached SFR lot sizes that cities will sometimes accept & builders have standard product for is 40’ wide
2. Dev’t costs - horizontal costs
New to Twitter. I’m a land investor/GP in Phoenix AZ & focus on future master-planned communities + industrial
3rd gen in AZ land biz
USC undergrad/Columbia grad➡️
Ex-senior mgmt consultant ➡️Ex-top land broker in Scottsdale area
➡️Co-CEO Emmerson Holdings: 17k+ future SFR lots
I’m incredibly bearish on Arizona:
-Too many foreign businesses are starting big operations here
-We’re getting flooded by people moving here from CA, WA, IL, etc
-Cities are competing w/ each other to attract new development & employers
-As a state, we’re not ideological enough
Just received 7-0 approval on a 20-acre rezoning in Scottsdale. Councilwoman Whitehead graciously took time to publicly thank our team for being responsible developers, working with Staff & Council, and being respectful of the beautiful North Scottsdale desert.
Proud moment.
A 1,000+ acre rezoning for a $14B data center project was just shot down in AZ.
On a recent Odd Lots podcast, Brian Janous (ex-Microsoft top energy lead) talked about how future data centers are expected to receive more pushback from cities.
@TheStalwart
@tracyalloway
Is PHX still growing?
Today’s AZ Biz News!
-Tallest tower in AZ moving forward, $575M project with 697 apts + hotel + comm
-Semi supplier proposes new 75k SF building
-Google starts on new $1B data center
-$1.5B data center “topping out ceremony”
-$400M hospital expansion
27 acres in Paradise Valley, AZ just sold for $46M! 27 lots ($1.7M ea)
Over last few yrs looking at just 4 of our AZ buys, for < $46M Emmerson Holdings w/ investors bought 2,800+ acres in Goodyear, Surprise, City of Maricopa & Pinal with approvals now for 11k+ units. ~$4.2k/unit
@TheStalwart
I get their mission and think some reforms are needed as far as disclosures / conflict of interest for legislators goes, but a lot of their headlines are just sensationalist and have zero context. Like XYZ Senator bought $50k of Lockheed Martin right before attack on Israel. Wow,
Here are the ways builders buy land (from least risky/most expensive to riskiest/least expensive):
1. Rolled finished lots, usually by a land banker
2. Buy finished lots once completed
3. Buy to-be-completed finished lots with finished lot costs guaranteed by developer/seller
4.
To all the AZ water doomers… isn’t it amazing that TSMC is spending $65B on water-intensive fabs in a state that is “running out of water”? Thank goodness nobody on X dropped the news on TSMC that AZ is out of water 🤣
Here’s an 80-acre site we own in City of Maricopa, AZ (pop. 75k). We paid <$1 PSF for land, applied to AZ Corp. Commission to get into utility’s designated service area for water/sewer, and rezoned for 329+- lots & a 5-acre commercial corner. DR Horton just landed 1/2 mile away
🙏6-0 approval tonight! Thanks to P&Z Commission, City Staff & Team.
Proposed new land use plan vs. old plan. Adding a significant & integrated retail component & a range of housing options to meet different consumer preferences/needs. Density allows for quality + affordability
Planning & Zoning Commission tonight on a ~236 acre Phase 2 of a future master-planned community
The old 2005 zoning was 100% single family. Bringing a better mix of housing (single-family residential, build-to-rent & higher density for-sale housing), modern design & new retail.
Tonight we received rezoning approval for a new 2,666 unit/880 acre community + commercial! Desert Trails will be 1 of biggest new communities in Surprise, AZ (which will in a few yrs pass SLC, UT in population).
Grateful for our team, Council & Staff!
@TheStalwart
@jake_bittle
“Some three-quarters of the Colorado is spread on farm fields”… farming will bear the brunt of the cuts in either scenario. Arizona has a $350+B economy, so we’re talking a modest economic impact in either scenario too
This is spot on. Below shows AZ water usage, which today is lower than it was in 1957! As agriculture has decreased, it’s given way to an explosion in population growth & especially economic growth.
@joshtpm
@AZLandInvestor
yeah, and the conclusion is probably that eventually the housing developers will buy out more and more of all the forms, allowing for an increase in population and a net reduction in water consumption.
With more than 80% of existing 30-year mortgages at or below a 4.5% interest rate, if mortgage rates dropped to the high 4’s or low 5’s I think you would see very low resale supply (people not moving) combined w/ a big jump in demand… which would need to be met by new housing.
This kind of optionality (unknown and unknowable use cases) is truly only possible with land!
It looks like Toll paid $5M for the land and sold it for $180M!
People don’t appreciate how impactful hybrid work is in terms of suburban growth. Take someone who commuted 20 minutes each way for 5 days/wk. If they now WFH 2 days/wk they can live 13+ mins further away (where homes are much more affordable)& spend same time each wk on commutes
Suburban boom loop: Even if workers aren't fully remote, they're not going into offices 5 days a week. That makes the suburbs appealing, says Lawrence Yun, chief economist at the NAR. "A little bit of a longer commute is not a hindrance"
@rice_rust_belt
Maricopa County has 475k acres of crops. NYC ~0. That’s the difference. 72% water used by ag. Not hubris to put civilization in middle of desert. PHX has supported a large pop. for ~2000 yrs based on diverse water resources. Very close to safe yield (4% short) & have 100 yr plan
Doom ReTwit, is this tired playbook the best you’ve got?
1. Find someone who made a bad buy at exact wrong time & screenshot it
2. Sensationalize a very small loss
3. Hint that “this is just the beginning”
4. Ignore the builders and other data
5. Stay in the “Doom” echo chamber
Story behind name - AZ cities:
Casa Grande - Native American ruins called “Big House” by Spaniards
Eloy - East Line of Yuma (railroad)
Surprise - its founder said she “would be surprised if the town ever amounted to much”
Goodyear - Goodyear Tire owned 16k acres for cotton
Only 30% of large homebuilders have enough land for next 3+ years, per a Zonda survey. And 70% expect to increase new home starts in 2024.
Great presentation by
@AliWolfEcon
at the Land Advisors’ Phoenix Land & Housing Forecast!
According to YIMBY’s, zoning reform is everything.
According to real estate practitioners surveyed by Urban Land Institute, labor, materials & regulations are more important.
Immigration > Zoning Reform?
*Yes, land costs and state & local regulations are related to NIMBYism*
A hedge fund CEO shared this is his view too. “The Fed has all the tools it needs to bring inflation down without a hard landing”.
Imagine jump in new housing demand if:
-Strong job mkt
-Inflation cools & 10 yr treasuries drop
-Spread btwn 10 yr T & 30 yr mortgage normalizes
With a bit of luck and reasonably good policymaking by the Fed, we should skirt recession. Indeed, the pervasive pessimism has served the purposes of the Fed - cooling off consumer spending and business investment, which is critical to getting inflation back in its bottle.
The late great Ed Mel gave an interview in 2008. When asked what it was about the AZ land that inspired him, he said:
“Oh, the land and the sky... I mean, it, it’s just so marvelous”
His art is dramatic & beautiful. Nothing captures the marvelousness of Arizona quite like it.
@TripleNetInvest
I’m a 3rd gen AZ land investor. Biggest return on a land deal (800+ acres) for my Dad was $500 to $30k/ac. Grandpa worked for Getz family- amazing AZ returns since 1960’s
In my career had land deals appreciate/sell for 4-15x + over a 3-10 yrs. 1 from $10k to $190k/acre in ~5 yrs
@TheStalwart
At the end of the day, think they’re better off focusing on real cases of abuse and highly irregular trading activity vs. just throwing a bunch of shade. These non-event type stories erode their own credibility & frankly that of legislators who in some cases may not deserve that
“AZ has banked …enough [groundwater] to sustain Phoenix & Tucson’s urban needs for a decade…For it to be 10 years’ worth of water, the Colorado & Salt Rivers would have to dry up, all groundwater pumping would have to stop, & it’d have to quit raining.”
1 misunderstood aspect of AZ’s growth… many assume that it’s driven only by people who can’t afford CA. But look at $4+M avg prices in Paradise Valley, or growth in N Scottsdale.
AZ has gained many business owners & wealthy new residents based on biz climate & quality of life.
The luxury market in Paradise Valley (wealthy enclave of Phoenix) continues to be absolutely on fire, with very low supply & high demand. 2 spec homes under construction listed for a total of nearly ~$50M.
Scottsdale is 5th largest city in AZ, pop. 250k. Within <10 yrs, supply of new single-family homes is about to shutdown. Only 3 future master-planned communities left in N. Scottsdale: Wildcat Hill (122 lots), Reata Ranch (330 lots) & Fiesta Ranch (227 lots). 679 lots. That’s it
If you haven’t listened, Barkin’s comments on housing are spot on…. secular shift towards growing importance of housing to consumers. Low supply driven by mortgage lock-in effect & seniors aging in place. New home market quite active/vibrant, but demand weaker. Bullish long-term
NEW ODD LOTS:
It's the
@RichmondFed
President.
Tom Barkin came on the show to talk to
@tracyalloway
and
@boes_
(who sub'd in for me) about the US economic resiliency, structurally higher demand for housing, supply chains, and the impact of higher rates.
Phoenix - the most affordable major housing market in the West… OK Vegas barely wins, but does anyone really want to live in Vegas?
And it helps that Phoenix has the fastest income growth in the country too.
@moseskagan
Lots of good ones mentioned already, but will add 4:
Urban Land Institute’s Emerging Trends Report
Harvard Joint Center for Housing Studies’ State of the Nation’s Housing Report
John Burns Research & Consulting
Zonda
Phoenix is labeled a poster child for sprawl & long commutes. But PHX’s avg commute is now on par w/ among shortest avg commutes for largest 30 metros. Lower than Denver, Charlotte & Austin, & just above San Diego
Great data
@ResidentialClub
@NewsLambert
. Subscribe to ResiClub!
This is type of deal I get excited about. We paid $11.6M ($10k/ac) for 1,160 ac./3,600+ lots w/ water & sewer solution in May ‘21, by 7th fastest growing City in US then. A top builder in escrow nearby & closed 600+ lots. Now selling homes fast. Builder comps in area $65+k/acre
Twitter’s wild. Appearing on Bloomberg’s Odd Lots is wilder. Intro’s from podcast:
-Founder of public builder told team “call & go buy AZ land”
-A top owner of builder stocks
-Founder of multi $ B RE-related firm
-NFL player
-Top RE journalists & analysts
-Large private builder
TRANSCRIPT:
The full text of our chat with
@AZLandInvestor
is out.
Tons of stuff in here about short-run, and long-run trends in homebuilding.
And how a Sunbelt boom state like Arizona is thinking about the future of its water supply.
AZ Water 101:
1.) If you are a homeowner and don’t haul your own water in a truck, nobody is taking away your water
2.) If you own land with a 100-year assured water supply, nobody is taking that away either
3.) Construction is not being “halted” as many in the media have stated
The luxury market in Paradise Valley (wealthy enclave of Phoenix) continues to be absolutely on fire, with very low supply & high demand. 2 spec homes under construction listed for a total of nearly ~$50M.
Phoenix
#1
in US for retail growth, per Costar.
“Its nation-leading pop. growth encouraged retailer expansion...and its growing labor market… as well as its expanding & diversifying local economy.
Construction typically takes place in Phoenix’s high-growth suburban areas”
Yesterday I received a terrific update from the Arizona Commerce Authority. AZ is under consideration for 400+ large job-creating projects; over 50 of those are mega projects (over 1,000 jobs or $500+M of CAPEX).
Here are the top 5 factors that make Arizona so competitive:
@moseskagan
4 cool things about it:
-Learning from previous generations / getting a historical perspective
-Bonding with family through shared work
-Reputation/ word is your bond extends not only thru your own life but through generations
-Multi-generational relationships with investors
Land investment requires more judgment than analysis, & more local vs. functional knowledge.
Some of our best deals didn’t “pencil” in traditional sense at time of acquisition. That’s why the return potential can exceed that of other RE:
Asymmetric Info + Judgment is Req’d
1/3
@mortgagetruth
72% of our water is still used for agriculture today. We use less water as a state today than in 1957, and with 7x the population and 10x the economy. Managing resources + adapting + growing
Great data below from John Burns Research & Consulting!
This is the back-up data for Jim Egan’s great comments on recent Odd Lots episode… As rates move higher, the incremental impact is less for both demand & for lock-in effect re: existing supply.
@TheStalwart
@tracyalloway
After 8%, each incremental rise in mortgage rates will start to have much less of an impact on affordability and overall housing demand.
Rates would have to rise SIGNIFICANTLY to really dent demand further from here, especially at higher price points.
A big account posted raise your hand if you’re self-made. Not me! Blessed to have a loving Mom & Dad. Dad brought me into land biz & taught me so much.
Stability of my wife’s job early on enabled us to invest & take risks w/ my career. Now she’s the amazing mother to our kids❤️
Land that has water…that isn’t being taken away, & there’s plenty for growth. Land that didn’t have water will now have a harder time getting water. This will cause a divergence in values btwn haves & have nots, & it will direct growth to areas w/ water.
9 key takeaways on the current state of the new housing market (from Lennar’s Q2 2024 conference call):
1. Interest rates at 6.75% drove additional demand ➡️ “interest rates started lower and felt constructive at approximately 6.75% as the market was adjusting to a new normal”
Lots of builder inquiries and offers on land/lots in metro Phoenix over the past 2 weeks. Things are really picking up. Strongest I’ve seen it since before spring of 2022 when mortgage rates shot up
There’s 1 company that everyone in the housing biz will have their eyes on next week… Pulte! $PHM, the nation’s 3rd largest homebuilder, reports Q3 earnings next Tuesday
Look for commentary on the impact of ~8% mortgage rates on the new housing market & Pulte’s outlook for 2024
We own 280+ acres of industrial land right off the 339th Ave. & Interstate 10 full-diamond interchange.
Yes, it’s far out from Goodyear/Loop 303, but it’s one of the only sites where truck drivers can drive to Inland Empire,
CA and back within the 11-hour driving limit.
@JLL
Solutions:
-Rising wages so $300k is no longer target; they’re up
-Lower mtg rates via drop in 10 yr T yield or (historic) spread between 10 yr & mortgages
-Immigration -> lower build costs
-More density
-Smaller homes
-Value eng. home
-Home’s higher % of budget
-Further out
Must listen pod on complexities of AZ water!
“AZ has some of most progressive water laws in world”
“PHX area blessed w/ very large aquifers” + Salt/Verde Rivers (sustainable) + CAP.
“Enough water for what we most value”
“Subdivisions much less water intensive than farming”
NEW ODD LOTS:
What the Arizona water battles are really all about.
@tracyalloway
and I talked to Kathryn Sorensen, one of the top water policy researchers at ASU.
Absolutely awesome at explaining the state's economy, geology, ecology, and history.
“People come to Phoenix in search of sunshine & opportunity. Accompanying this influx are media narratives that the region is doomed to run out of water…The idea that Phoenix will run out of water is more than odd, it’s wrong.”
@TheStalwart
DR Horton Call
-Expanding into new markets, leading to higher SG&A➡️ this fits my thesis that builders will need to move more & more to edges of growth due to lack of land & affordability in more core submarkets
-Land supply on books sort of @ minimum needed to sustain operations
@mucha_carlos
@ebwhamilton
We’re working on bringing this type of product/zoning to suburbs here in certain areas. Also, build to rent communities/bungalows that are 12 units to the acre roughly. Or auto-court product that’s 6 units to acre. Or of course small lot SFR
Agreed. Our meetings with large national builders looking for new land positions in Phoenix market are picking up… Their Jan & Feb sales exceeding expectations + likelihood of lower 30 yr mortgage rates + light land positions now= looking for new land to meet demand in 2024-2026
Channel checks are suggesting builders are increasing starts pace as Jan/Feb have been half as bad as they expected.
Street is assuming catastrophic numbers, it appears those have an upward bias now. If we are done with rate hikes, that is another +ve.
$NVR, $LEN, $DHI, $PHM
How to earn outsized risk-adjusted returns?
Find a market with:
1. Few natural buyers
2. Asymmetric info (ie get an edge)
3. Ways to add value w/ skills/ relationships
4. Unknowable return outcomes that require judgment
5. High convexity: relatively limited downside & big upside
The $30B fab that Intel’s building in Chandler doesn’t get as much attention as TSMC, but it should. 10+ cranes up today. Will bring 3k high-wage jobs, possibly 4k based on expanded footprint.
City of Maricopa is logical place for new housing & supplier sites— a 15 min drive.
Phoenix is building a mega plant to make wastewater drinkable by 2030. It will “purify 60M gallons/ day — enough water for about 200k households per year,” according to AZ Republic. AZ has been adapting to manage water resources & grow for nearly 2k yrs.
It’s impossible to overstate what Rachel Sacco (head of Experience Scottsdale) has done for Scottsdale 🙌
“For every $1 spent on advertising, $116 was generated in visitor spending & $4 in local taxes.”
“Scottsdale is viewed more favorably than…Las Vegas, Miami & Palm Springs”
Some of you seem to like land planning as much as I do.
Here’s a 280+ acre site that we are planning for 900+ units. Notice that this is a hand-drawn sketch. The best land planners still start with a hand-drawn layout before putting everything into CAD. Wish I could do this!
Mexico now supplies more goods to US than China! AZ will benefit more from both near-shoring (Mexico) & re-shoring (e.g. TSMC) than any state but TX (bc of Laredo & El Paso)
CA / Inland Empire had been major beneficiary of trade from China. Look for industrial moves to AZ & TX!
One of the most misunderstood aspects of migration to metro Phoenix is that it’s purely about affordability: ie buyers from CA moving to AZ bc of the lower cost of living.
However, even for high net worth buyers, only S. Florida ranks higher than PHX. N. Scottsdale & PV going 🚀
2 potential outcomes due to misinformation & mischaracterization of AZ water worry me:
1. Employers not finding out facts on water & therefore may not locate in AZ
2. People may not move to AZ
Fact is: AZ has water for companies + new housing, just not in certain far flung areas
“Scottsdale has the 2nd highest growth rate for millionaires, according to the USA Wealth Report 2024 from Henley & Partners, which found that the Valley city had a 102% increase in millionaires between 2013 & 2023. Only Austin, Texas, had a higher rate, at 110%.”
@phxbizjournal
@NewsLambert
@WSJ
Definitely some moral hazard going on there too. Those least able to deal with a disaster (albeit they do own their house w/o a mortgage) forgo insurance. Disaster strikes and gov’t plays clean-up. Then more homeowners who own their home free & clear also forgo insurance. Repeat.
Typical value-add land buy:
-Thru a broker
-Cash
-90-day close
-Rezone for >density single-family & some BTR/retail
-Negotiate development agmt w/ City
-Utilities work (w/ utility, neighbor, City, etc)
-Get CLOMR/remove flood
-Engineering
-Dev’t budgets
-Sell at final approvals
Example of growth in higher price points…When our Storyrock community launched in 2019, new homes were starting in $700’s. Today, the lowest starting price for our Storyrock buyers (Shea, DW & Rosewood) is $1.7M.
Toll Brothers closed on our last phase for $24.7M in March 2023
Conor nails housing again.
A trend is “outer Phoenix rather than core Phoenix… if you are trying to hit a $400k price point for entry-level buyers, with land prices where they are maybe you can’t do that in PHX anymore”
💯! Growth will be in Surprise, Maricopa, Florence, etc
It was great to be back on the Top of Mind podcast with
@mikesimonsen
talking where housing’s been over the past couple years and where it might be going:
Tonight we received planning commission approval on a 12-lot / 20-acre future community in N. Scottsdale!
Notice all the green? Quality development like this preserves large amounts of open space, brings developer-funded utilities/roads, & maintains rural character of the area.
@nntaleb
Another area to visit, Scottsdale’s McDowell Sonoran Preserve. At over 30k acres, it’s the largest urban nature preserve in the lower 48 states. Favorite trailhead is Tom’s Thumb - right by our Storyrock community
Closing on a new land investment tomorrow… our first 100+ acre buy since ~880 acres in December 2022, and not for lack of trying!
And actually, we put this new land under contract back in 2021!
Better to wait for the right buys vs. rushing to put capital to work.
Our 2,666 unit Surprise, AZ
rezoning passed 5-2 Tues. Council helped reach a compromise w/ neighbors to cut commercial some, though 2 on council wanted commercial to be left as-is
“It’s going to be a project we are really proud of,” Council member Remley
1. Personally, I’m pro ALL kinds of housing: urban/high-rise, ‘missing middle’ & yes, small lot single-family too. There are BIG buyer/renter segments that want ALL of these types of housing, & I think we need a lot more of ALL of them to address affordability. Professionally,
Few natural buyers, high barriers to entry, difficult to value, ability to leverage insider info, ton of optionality/upside, limited supply, low carrying costs, ability to add value w/ entitlements… what more could you want?
Best thing is making a big multiple, not depreciation
I’ve never understood the guys who buy land and sit on it.
There is no depreciation and there is no cashflow.
Those are the two best things about real estate.
And you get neither!
"We're in growth mode," said Jeff Gunderson, SVP of land for Lennar. "In order to do that, we've got to buy land. We're going to be very aggressive buying land this year. Our goal is to be nearly double in size in three to four years in home closings."
@phxbizjournal
@TripleNetInvest
Sometimes find deals where there literally are no other bidders for the land. Raw land has few natural buyers. But when a property is taken thru entitlements, and when a submarket is given time to mature, all of a sudden the buyers crawl out of the woodwork & pay full retail.
Why is it so hard to build & sell a house for < $300k?
To finish the lot it typ. costs above $1500/front foot. So a 45’ wide lot costs $67.5k+ to improve. Home price is ~4x lot price based on cost to build & profit margin. Even if land was 100% free that would be a $270+k house!
We just got an approved final plat (“final approvals”) for 184 lots + a retail site on a 40-acre parcel in the City of Maricopa, AZ. Mix of 40’ & 45’ wide lots.
Lennar on the section of land to the north. DR Horton just closed on a site directly to the east (w/ a land banker).
Will add regulatory reform to that list! And improving cycle times (which allows a builder to accept a lower margin). Inspections & permitting processes hurt both cycle times and direct costs.
Honored to be joining the Board of Maricopa Economic Development Alliance! MEDA is the economic development org for the City of Maricopa, AZ — the 7th fastest-growing city in the US.
Maricopa is 15 mins from Intel’s $30B new fab. Its future is bright!