Sariel Har-Peled 🆗 @sarielhp Twitter profile

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

The only fair and balanced CS departments ranking out there

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

11 months

Did you try looking for your kidnapped child in the Hamas lost-and-found department? 🙄

Barak Ravid

@BarakRavid

11 months

Emily Hand a 9 year-old dual Israeli-Irish citizen was kidnapped by Hamas. Her step mother who raised her was murdered. For almost 50 days she was in a tunnel in Gaza without her parents. But for the Prime Minister of Ireland "she was lost and now been found"

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

5 months

An overleaf project that serves as a template for an empty paper. It predefines all standard envs (lemma/remark/theorem/proof/etc), while supporting BibLatex or BibTex. Finetuned to my taste, but maybe useful if you just want to start writing a paper...

Overleaf, Online LaTeX Editor

An online LaTeX editor that’s easy to use. No installation, real-time collaboration, version control, hundreds of LaTeX templates, and more.

www.overleaf.com

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

6 months

@TaliaRinger A nifty trick is to add the digits. If the resulting number is divisible by 3 then the original number is divisible by 3. In this case the sum of digits is 36, so...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

Consider an algorithm that in the ith iteration picks a number r_i uniformly and independently from [0, 1]. The algorithm continues to the next iteration if r_i = min(r_1, . . . , r_i ). Q: What is the expected number of iterations the algorithm performs?

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

Robert Andrews (a phd student here in CS UIUC) got best student paper award in FOCS this year for his single author paper...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

A cute and well known observation: To compute the min cut in unweighted undirected graph, randomly assign weights to the edges, compute MST according to these weights, and remove the heaviest edge in the MST. The two connected components are the min-cut with probability >2/n^2.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

Old joke about cs theory: - a monologue is one person talking to himself. - a dialogue is two people talking to themselves. - a polylog is a theory conference.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

Wow. Constant approximation to independent set of axis-aligned rectangles. That is a breakthrough result...

Approximating Maximum Independent Set for Rectangles in the Plane

We give a polynomial-time constant-factor approximation algorithm for maximum independent set for (axis-aligned) rectangles in the plane. Using a polynomial-time algorithm, the best approximation...

arxiv.org

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

Good news. Oded Goldreich had just received the Israel prize after a year delay and prolonged legal battle. Article in Hebrew... Reminder: current and previous education ministers refused to give him the prize because of redicilous political reasons...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

10 months

@Asa1992Scott @DAaronovitch Not even the worst now. See Sudan.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

Computer science is not really a science, and it is mostly not about computers nowadays. I move that we change the name of the field to "computer" "science".

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

1 year

Nonsense. Science fiction was the only medium that predicted correctly the last ten world wars, including the one involving zombies.

Talia Ringer 🟣 🎗️

@TaliaRinger

1 year

Sometimes when I point out how much of the AI Doomer rhetoric is straight out of science fiction, people point out that science fiction is where we express our anxieties about technology. This is fair, but it's also a terrible medium for predicting how they will play out

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

SODA 2022 registration is 325$/260$ for students in-person/virtual (it is slightly cheaper if you are a siam or acm member). That seems pretty outrageous for the virtual registration.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

Zander Kelley a student in theory group in uiuc...

Surprise Computer Science Proof Stuns Mathematicians | Quanta Magazine

For decades, mathematicians have been inching forward on a problem about which sets contain evenly spaced patterns of three numbers. Last month, two computer scientists blew past all of those results.

www.quantamagazine.org

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

It is a truth universally acknowledged that a truly prestigious conference accepts no papers....

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

A student in office hour referred to the Harrison-Ford algorithm (instead of Bellman-Ford), and now I am hoping for a movie titled "Indiana Jones and the negative-cycle of doom".

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

A new theory journal that is an overlay of the arxiv. An interesting idea...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

The passive language here comes across as not taking any responsibility for what happened. Also highly insensitive to the victims.

Computer Science and Engineering at Michigan

@UMichCSE

3 years

. @UmichCSE has experienced a series of faculty misconduct allegations, which have caused us to reflect on our practices, policies, and core values.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

5 months

Worth reading. I agree with some of the points, disagree with some others.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

UIUC CS is looking for people in theory/algorithms: Faculty: Teaching:

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

5 years

If conferences are online only, then they should accept all papers that are above threshold - physical limits disappear. All theory conferences should have acceptance rates > 40%. PC can designate better papers by accepting into different pools (spotlight, reg, garbage, etc).

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

1 year

For too long mathematicians shackled themselves to correct proofs, like anybody care, when it is obvious that incorrect proofs are more fun...

Gautam Kamath

@thegautamkamath

1 year

ML hype meets theory CS hype. This paper purports to use LLMs to verify a recent "proof" by two of the authors that P != NP. The claimed proof is not correct. Therefore, an LLM being able to "verify" its work demonstrates a *failure* of these models, not a success.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

Here is an algorithms question in CG which is not easy: Given a set P of n points in the plane, and k <= sqrt(n), consider the set X of all pairwise distances in P. Output the k smallest numbers in X, in O(n) time.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

This is a nice paper showing how to compute global min-cut in a weighted undirected graph using polylog max-flow calculations. (h/t Chandra Chekuri)

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

I bought a physical book. I tried double clicking but nothing happened. How do you open this thing?

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 months

SODA rebuttal stage had began. Mine went directly to spam 🤷‍♀️. The quality of reviews seems quite good, even the ones that claim my paper is trashy trash and I STRONGLY disagree with.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

5 years

Sometime the farmer let the cow drink a tiny bit of of its own milk. The farmer calls it "longstanding commitment to Open Access."

Ned 'no longer here' Potter

@ned_potter

5 years

Cows make milk. They milk themselves. Other cows check the milk (for free). Cows - get this - PAY THE FARMER to take the milk away. Then the farmer (you won't believe this, honestly) sells the milk *back to the cows.* #academicpublishing

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

Lol. One of the portals for submitting recommendation letters for grad school has the option to choose "best student in 50 years". Why no option for 500 or 5000 or 50,000 years? Or "best student since Atlantis sunk under the sea"?

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

Hungarian method was described in 1890 in a paper written in Latin. Wow.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

That happens also in mainstream theory conferences. For example this famous example from FOCS 1980:

Gautam Kamath

@thegautamkamath

3 years

I know of a paper that got an oral presentation at NeurIPS about five years ago. The proof of the main lower bound was "to appear in the full version" and is still nowhere to be found 🙃

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

"Fig. 3.5 A graph of binom(n,k) as a function of k in the vicinity of n/2 (a), or perhaps a hat, or maybe a gigantic boa constrictor which has swallowed an elephant (b) (see [28])." Page 96 from "Invitation to Discrete Mathematics" by Jiří Matoušek, and Jaroslav Nešetřil

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

6 months

@AnshelPfeffer Main reason I think Israel should not respond to the Iranian attack immediately if no major damage caused.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

> 370 pages long. Wow. Can't wait to to the movie based on this book 😁...

Thatchaphol Saranurak

@eig

3 years

A breakthrough in approximation algorithms!

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

Rumor has it that SODA 2022 is going to be virtual because of omicron. Since COVID is going to be around for years, it is not clear to me who will spend more than 1000$ for an in person conference attendence if there is a chance of (say) 50% of losing most of the money...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

All algorithms must now halt. All algorithms that fail to halt would be executed.

Slashdot

@slashdot

3 years

China Proposes Strict Control of Algorithms

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

Counting from one to ten alternating between two languages is surprisingly difficult.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; give a man five dollars online, and you feed him for a lifetime as he sells, and resells, your contact info to all the charity organizations out there.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

(Fun q... I probably asked this q before...) You throw n balls into n bins. All the balls that are not alone in their bin, move to the next round, where you throw them into n empty bins, and so on. How many rounds do you have to play till all balls are gone?

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

The rich spiritual life of a cs major...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

5 years

Work on it intensively and finish it quickly. Put it aside. Forget all about it. It never happened. Then a month or two later, once you forgot everything about it, start working on it again as a new text you never seen before. Be appalled by the writing.

John Gallagher

@MereSophistry

5 years

What’s your best writing tip for academic writing? Mine is to use interstitial time. Use those 20 min here and there. Keep that draft open and ready to jump in and out.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

@thegautamkamath Disagree - this whole sentence is redundant and can be removed... We=unnecessary, who else would be doing this? give=unnecessary. What else could we be doing? Take? new=of course it's new, if it was old we would not be writing this paper. Etc...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

FOCS 2021 is going to be virtual because of COVID. Registration starts at 430$ cheap. I understand the times we live in, but this is bad - the end result is that *nobody*, except authors,would register early to a conference.

Registration - FOCS 2021

NOTE: In case you registered and have not received the login credentials, please email Alexandra Kolla ([email protected]) with the proof of registration. Registration is required for all...

focs2021.cs.colorado.edu

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

Strange. My recent experience convinced me of the unlearnability of decidability (for some undergraduate students) .

TCS blog aggregator

@cstheory

3 years

Undecidability of Learnability

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

@rrwilliams well. It might be Nobel prize for peace. The standards there seems less clear...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

A new talk "Computing optimal homotopies" by Erin Wolf Chambers is now available on the CG channel on youtube...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

A new paper with Pankaj Agarwal on an old new problem. Two decades ago we developed the notion of coresets/kernels for optimization problems in low dimensions (together with Kasturi Varadarajan). 1/n

Computing Optimal Kernels in Two Dimensions

Let $P$ be a set of $n$ points in $\Re^2$. For a parameter $\varepsilon\in (0,1)$, a subset $C\subseteq P$ is an \emph{$\varepsilon$-kernel} of $P$ if the projection of the convex hull of $C$...

arxiv.org

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

Assume candidate A gets p votes, and B gets only q<p votes. Assuming random ordering of votes, what is the probability of A always being strictly ahead of B in the vote count? The answer is (p-q)/(p+q), and the cyclic permutation proof is beautiful...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

There is now an official youtube channel for computational geometry. We hope to populate it with talks/demos/animation/etc - let me know if you know about content that should be uploaded to the channel....

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

The original proof that random regular graph is an expander is from the paper by Pinsker from 1973:

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

8 months

@TaliaRinger Wait till they hear about C++....

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

@deliprao that's an old Roman empire sampling algorithm...

Decimation (punishment) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

Here is nice wrong inductive proof by Knuth. It took me a while to find the bug...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

To give credit where credit is due, the original breakthrough was by two PhD students Konstantinos Koiliaris and Chao Xu...

A Faster Pseudopolynomial Time Algorithm for Subset Sum

Given a multiset $S$ of $n$ positive integers and a target integer $t$, the subset sum problem is to decide if there is a subset of $S$ that sums up to $t$. We present a new divide-and-conquer...

arxiv.org

Thomas Ahle

@thomasahle

3 years

I just learned about @jcvbcn and @HongxunWu 's beautiful algorithm for Subset Sum in Õ(n+t) time, where t is the target sum. Recall the classical dynamic programming solution (by Bellman 1957) takes O(n⋅t) time. How is this improvement possible? 1/n

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

I would in favor of partially replacing geometry and calculus in K12 by combinatorics, probability and graph theory. All these topics are more concrete, more useful, directly applicable, and teach you more about mathematical thinking. Some algorithms would be nice...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

I came up with a great title for a paper. Now I just need to find a remotely relevant problem, solve it, and write a paper using this title. So this project is essentially done...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

6 years

SODA 2019 dates: July 5: Short abstract submission deadline (4:59pm EDT). July 12: Full paper submission deadline (4:59pm EDT). September 27: Notification of rejection.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

SODA 2023 results are in.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

If you plan to write papers, then you are doing it wrong. You do the research and papers emerge.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

1 month

The grave of the fireflies is now available on Netflix. An amazing movie (warning... Depressing)

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

5 years

@geomblog I developed a linear time 3SAT solver, but I am also not going to release it because of fear it could wreck the online poker industry... /s

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

I logged into the system to do some admin for the phd qual, and the system informed me that my GPA is too low to take the qual.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

5 years

Easy brain teaser (the one dimensional Ham-Sandwitch): Prove that for any set of 2n points on a circle, there exists a line that passes through the center of the circle, avoids the points, and partitions the points equally (i.e., n points on each side of the line).

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

15 days

One of my papers that got rejected from SODA had scores: 2*Accept, 2*(Weak Accept), and a summary review (that is of course marked as Reject). Reminds me of this classic rejection:

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

In many hard proofs ideas are not surprising and were around awhile, but carrying the proof through monstrous case analysis (four color theorem), or managing the sheer amount of tricky details requires superhuman abilities (Poincaré Conjecture). Good ideas are not enough.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

5 months

The research paper titles just write themselves: "On the optimal location on earth of spherical jews based on their DNA: An empirical study". /s

Talia Ringer 🟣 🎗️

@TaliaRinger

5 months

Can people like this please stop talking about Jews like we are theoretical objects to be thrown around however they want and start talking about us like we are human?

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

A new paper with @ElfaroukHarb revisiting the complexity/compuatation of Delaunay triangualtion, MST, conex-hull, etc for random points.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

@eig set a budget of time for teaching and stick with it. Say two days of work a week. You have to accept that the results would not be optimal, but most of the time spent on preparing has little marginal value.. .

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

Clearly,

status annoyicus

@medburnbook

4 years

give me a horror story from your specialty in five words or less

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

Sometimes you want to make your LaTeX document a bit longer, so it perfectly fits the page limit. The following adds spacing in a nice unobtrusive way that looks natural: \usepackage{setspace}% \setstretch{1.1}%

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

Sampling near neighbors in search for fairness to appear in CACM. With Martin Aumüller, Sepideh Mahabadi, @RasmusPagh1 and @SilvestriFr

Sampling near neighbors in search for fairness | Communications of the ACM

Similarity search is a fundamental algorithmic primitive, widely used in many computer science disciplines. Given a set of points S and a radius parameter r > 0, the r-near neighbor (r-NN) problem...

dl.acm.org

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

Zoom out: being in a zoom meeting while not paying any attention to it.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

python3 has an automatic memoization mechanism for recursive function that is very easy to use, and works really well (also, seems like python3 allows pretty large integer numbers). Super cool!

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

18 days

SODA results are are being emailed out, both my submissions got rejected. So it goes.

The Fréchet Distance Unleashed: Approximating a Dog with a Frog

We show that a minor variant of the continuous Fréchet distance between polygonal curves can be computed using essentially the same algorithm used to solve the discrete version, thus...

arxiv.org

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

8 months

This is why my most recent paper is titled: "nearly almost optimal algorithm under an unknown conjecture that is probably wrong". Leaves a lot of space for future work.

Clément Canonne

@ccanonne_

8 months

Listen, once you publish a paper claiming an "optimal algorithm for [X]," that's it. It's optimal. You're no longer allowed to "improve on it"

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

Good news - I don't have covid19.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

Congratulations to Mitchell Jones @mitchellfjones for successfully defending his phd thesis!

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

The optimist: maybe this time it would be correct! The realist: oh no, another one of these papers. The pessimist: who cares, it is the wrong question anyway... The sadist: somebody else should find the bug. The masochist: let me have a look.

TCS blog aggregator

@cstheory

3 years

A proof of P != NP (New symmetric encryption algorithm against any linear attacks and differential attacks)

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

Min cut, max flow of tears.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

1 year

This is strange... From STOC 2024 call for papers: "Authors are asked to avoid "et al." in citations in favor of an equal mention of all authors."

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

7 years

SODA 2019 deadlines: July 5, 2018, 4:59 PM EDT: Short abstracts July 12, 2018, 4:59 PM EDT: Full glorious paper submission From here:

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

1 year

It is the season of writing NSF CAREER proposals, and here are a few comments I had on the topic:

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

1 year

Cute example of randomization. Q: Consider an array A[1..n] of distinct real numbers. Let j=succ(i) be the location in A of the smallest number that is larger than A[i] (-1 if A[i] is max). Assume succ(i) takes O(1) time. Describe alg, as fast as pos, that computes max(A).

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

7 months

@ccanonne_ .txt would work better.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

1 year

SoCG 2023 is over! Fabulous organization by Emily Fox and Ben Rachel (and many local volenteers). Nice 60th birthday celebration for Pankaj, Boris and Tamal.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

8 months

I call for immediate ceasefire in the public comments in the Urbana city council meetings, where for the 6th time, hours were wasted "discussing" the situation in Gaza. The commitment of the two groups to trigger each other, while wasting everyone else time, is awe inspiring.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

5 years

ESA 19 notifications are out. Congratulations if appropriate, condolences otherwise. This is the first time that I was on a PC with double blind reviewing. A bit more on this...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

University of Illinois will require COVID vaccination from faculty, stuff, and students for the fall semester (previously, the requirement was only for students). Good.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

Life would have been so much more fun, if claims in papers to prove the existence of an algortihm, did exactly that, instead of just presenting such an algorithm.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

8 months

My paper with Zhimeng Gao got accepted to SoCG 2024. She is an undergrad student currently applying to grad school. Admit now, while supply lasts... P.S. The paper:

Almost Optimal Locality Sensitive Orderings in Euclidean Space

$ \newcommand{\Re}{\mathbb{R}} \newcommand{\reals}{\mathbb{R}} \newcommand{\SetX}{\mathsf{X}} \newcommand{\rad}{r} \newcommand{\Eps}{\Mh{\mathcal{E}}} \newcommand{\p}{\Mh{p}}...

arxiv.org

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 years

job (or equally unqualified, since nobody is trained to do this job). Sometime it does not work out, thus we have the tenure process. To put it differently : Are most men hired over more qualified people for faculty positions? Absolutely, all the time! (3/3)

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

3 months

Largest convex subset of points ...

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

Since AI models the world as a matrix, this is going to be done via Gaussian elimination.....

Slashdot

@slashdot

2 years

Google Deepmind Researcher Co-Authors Paper Saying AI Will Eliminate Humanity

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

Walkout seminar - it's like a walk-in closet, except that everybody leaves when the speaker starts. Well done...

Levin

@levinishere

2 years

The @uwcse colloquium today was a speaker that they publicly denounced merely months ago for “meritless, sexist, inflammatory, attention-seeking commentary that reflects poorly on him and everyone associated with him.”

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 months

A fun (maybe easy?) trick algorithms question. You are given an array A[1..n] of real numbers, and a param k. Compute in O(n) time the quantities: B[i] = min( A[i...i+k] ) for all i.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

A cute shower problem via YouTube. You have 5 boxes in a row. A cat hides in one of them. Each day you allowed to open open one of the boxes, and each night the cat moves to adjacent box. Without using milk derive a deterministic strategy to catch the cat.

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

Surprise! Chromatic number of touching graph of circles (condition: no 3 circles are tangent to each other at same point) is unbounded. Proof uses heavy machinery (Hales-Jewett theorem) in an intricate and clever way. Very nice result. In SoCG 22.

To cheer you up in difficult times 34: Ringel Circle Problem solved by James Davies, Chaya Keller,...

Gerhard Ringel considered in 1959 the following: Consider a finite family of circles such that every point in the plane is included in at most two circles. What is the minimum number of colors need…

gilkalai.wordpress.com

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

4 years

33 years later and I still remember the first 27 digits of pi correctly. What a waste of space - I could have used it to remember more useful information like the first 27 digits of e^(i*pi)....

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Sariel Har-Peled 🆗

@sarielhp

2 years

@ccanonne_ @MikolaLysenko I think its accidental, but many think its transcendental...

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