#robodebtrc
Little known fact. An estimated 15,000 welfare prosecutions (2001-2013) were prosecuted and convicted without a basis in law. The High Court so held. No remedial system has been established.
Robodebt followed. It gave us about 400,000+ debts without a basis in law.
Dozens and dozens of submissions from Centrelink staff to the
#robodebtrc
have been published today. They may be summarised thus: 'we knew; we spoke up; we were ignored.' Names are named (albeit redacted) and details are detailed. Eg:
#RobodebtRC
Of course it is exhaustingly ironic that poor records with respect to the actions of government now excuse witnesses from accountability but no such excuse was available to welfare recipients asked to collect employment records from more than 7 years in the past…
#robodebtrc
Interesting that Miller's lawyer has applied to cross-examine Alan Tudge tomorrow and that the Commissioner's inclined to accept the application pending objections and arguments from Tudge's counsel.
I've been speaking to some journalists about a lesser-known aspects of the
#RobodebtRC
: namely, that people were prosecuted and convicted for criminal offences arising from robodebts. Evidence heard from then acting Cth solicitor for the CDPP James Carter confirmed two things.
#robodebtrc
Porter struggles to remember who the chief counsel of DHS was, even now. That's not good. That's pretty much the red flag, right there. So the top lawyer at DHS was virtually unknown to the one-time minister for social services -- a lawyer himself.
#robodebtrc
For anyone who's been following the Royal Commission but had not seen all of
@RachelMSiewert
's work leading up to it (without which there'd be no RC), here's a typical piece of advocacy.
#robodebtrc
Absolutely telling assumption from Tudge that most people earn the same amount each fortnight. A completely dull and workmanlike articulation of a fundemantal error of fact.
#RobodebtRC
Here we go. the real-world of the big consultancies laid bare. A breif phone call with a manager to wrap up the million-dollar job. No emails? No worries.
I hope that the Commission makes recommendations that Services Australia and the CDPP conduct a comprehensive review of all those prosecuted and convicted for welfare crimes (under the Cth Criminal Code) during the period (and before) to ensure their debts were not unlawful.
#robodebtrc
There it is. James Carter said it's not possible to say there was not averaging involved in prosecuted and convicted debts by the CDPP. That's it. This is not a civil law issue anymore.
#RoboDebtRC
Extremely sensitive evidence being given by Jennifer Miller about her son Rhys Cauzzo. The evidence is distressing; Rhys drew an image before he died featuring the words 'Debt Life.'
Second: that the CDPP has been unable to identify how many robodebtors were subject to criminal prosecutions because the evidence briefs received by the CDPP from Services Australia were insufficiently detailed regarding averaging and the CDPP has 'no sense at all' about them:
It was obvious to me that Juian Leeser was almost in tears as he resigned from the front bench today. His voice waivered as he observed that Indigenous people have been 'left behind in our national project.' I could not help but think of the demeaning things said ...
#robodebtrc
Peter Hanks didn't just write constitutional law textbooks. He also wrote the authoratative text on social security law in Australia, published by Oxford University Press. And guess who his co-author was? Terry Carney, of course. All social security ministers ...
#robodebtrc
If the witness wants to suggest that the department did not appeal AAT1s because they were thinking of the customer (as was said earlier today), it's an amazing way to express empathy. One might say it's 'empathy as a last resort.' ...
First: that where the CDPP was prosecuting someone for a robodebt, or a partial robodebt, then the identified matter was reviewed and the robodebt component excluded, sometimes resulting in a discontinuation of the prosecution.
#RobodebtRC
Eminent academic and legal professional colleagues of mine have expressed to me privately their astonishment at the revelations of the Royal Commission.
The
#RobodebtRC
has again today published a trove of anonymous and identified submissions that presumably it could not do before now. One of them narrates the stress and anxiety faced by a lawyer whose prospects to practice were put in jeopardy by, seemingly, a $10k robodebt.
#npc
@AlboMP
committing to an RC into robodebt. If the TOR are good and the RC is run properly, so much could be done to improve welfare in Australia. There is also so much research to be examined in such an RC — into automated decisions, admin law, welfare prosecutions.
... of Albo's own emotional moment earlier in the month -- words that implied he was somehow not strong enough to be a leader because he might have had a moment of pathos on this issue. I hope that we can now agree that it's okay to feel moved by this debate, whoever you are.
#robodebtrc
Porter's evidence implicitly and now directly identifes the creation of the policy as the critical point -- as, if we've been following, we all probably realise. Arguably, Morrison and Campbell should have appeared now, after all ...
#RoboDebtRC
It's not a big sample size, but it's clear that many thousands of robodebtors were studying full-time at university. We already know this, but it bears repeating that the welfare stereotypes are completely wrong. The wider implication, economically, is that ...
#robodebtrc
Only just dropping in as much as possible during a busy teaching day, but
@andrewasten
's evidence, including emails referring to the PM (Morrison) discussing SMH artciles on robodebt, puts us right up against the insider liability weighing.
There is almost nothing on Twitter about the Ombo’s report published on Wednesday.
#robodebtrc
owns the unlawful welfare debt space. But there is, regrettably, much more than robodebt to criticise. A desktop review found 100k non-robodebts are unlawful debts going back to 2003.
#robodebtrc
Is everyone thinking what I'm thinking? This v0.25 DRAFT started to reveal some issues that DHS would rather not have had pursued, and so they decide to 'accept' the previously produced slide deck as the final report and as constituting satisfaction of the contract.
Powerful and well-expressed arguments dispensed with clinical execution in support of the Voice. Hats off to
@NSWBar
Pres Bashir SC. Online for payers here:
At first blush, this is very well-rounded: 57 recommendations ranging from appointment of chief counsel process changes through to creating a statutory duty to assist in respect of the Cth Ombudsman.
#robodebtrc
Here’s Dante George Rudge Gulli!
@CamillaGulli
and I adore him. He arrived after some 24 hours at 2.9 kilograms and 47.5 centimetres on 25 Feb 2023, 2.10am. He and Mum are healthy as can be. He has clubfoot and we look forward to his treatment journey! Can’t wait to share more.
#mentalhealthlaw
Watching Hon Paul Lakatos SC give a talk on the intersection of mental health and criminal law at the MHRT. Describing the trajectory of forensic patients. (His Honour is now appointed an ICAC Commissioner.)
@SydCrim
@SydneyHealthLaw
@SydneyLawSchool
Equally I have never heard of any other jurisdiction in the world, in history, in which the government refunded a class of its citizens something like 1.2 billion dollars. I am yet to be corrected that this is the biggest government-to-citizens settlement in world history.
#thevoice
A recent former Chief Justice of the High Court (and technicality mastermind) co-authors an article with Emiritus Prof of constitutional law. As you'd hope and expect, they run through the amendment's language in a methodical manner. It also answers two important qs.
#RobodebtRC
These media advisors are quite remarkable, aren't they? Robodebt was like a tab at a bar that 'made money not from the high rollers but from the little guys.' What a revealing analogy.
#RobodebtRC
Incredible! The DLOs had access to the department system! That is a huge conflict of interest potentially there. How many customers had their matters reviewed by Ministerial staff?
I have never heard of any other jurisdiction in the world where something like 15,000 convictions were secured and finalised without a lawful basis -- or, put at its highest, without sufficient evidence disclosed in the statement of facts about the recipients requisite knowledge.
#RobodebtRC
Thoughts with Cauzzo/Miller family and friends at the moment. The letter excluding relevant documents as 'falling out of scope' is possibly 'too narrow' concedes the chief counsel; it's effectively an attempt to withhold evidence, just as asserted by Rhys' dear mum.
To hear more about the 15,000 unsound convictions from 2013, listen to this great summary here. This is a topic for which I have a great passion, so please ask any questions if you have any!
Having said the above, it's also worth noting that back in 2015, around when robodebt was being conceived and tested, DHS was attempting to establish a better supported relationship with CDPP. That is, DHS were getting training on how to produce better briefs for the CDPP:
Now in damage control. Appropriate steps have been taken *when* it has been apparent, but there is not way to know which ones have been averaged and which ones have not. This is a nightmare. There needs to be a system established to review these prosecutions.
#robodebtrc
It took about 3 hours of incremental fact establishment, but Campbell has finally conceded that the NPP was misleading to Cabinet. This might be a pyrrhic victory. If the NPP was misleading, then Ministers were plausibly misled. But now Greggery doubling back: ...
Run-of-the-mill questions and comments arising from the
@NACCgovau
decision not to investigate the six public officials referred it by Commissioner Holmes via the
@RobodebtRC
.
@maximumwelfare
@GuardianAus
Don't sweat it. Your work stands on its own. No plaudits from the press can alter direct recognition from the Hon Holmes SC.
I would be surprised if the Commission did not recommend that a thorough review be undertaken by the CDPP and SA; however, it is also a sidebar to the terms of reference so I may be disappointed. The AG could of course direct that such a review occcur regardless.
#RobodebtRC
No real shade, but imagine being at the centre of robodebt and not reading the most important legal analysis of the issues ever produced until the night before you appeared.
#RobodebtRC
That was a flashpoint. The reasoning articulated by AM at end of that session is one of the first exemplars in the genre. In paraphrase: 'If it was lawful to do avaeraging after a 10-step process, then it would be lawful to do averaging after a two-step process.' ...
#RobodebtRC
I simply cannot believe that Tudge read about the Amato settlement in the newspaper as he says. The government settled the case! And the minister read about it in the paper? That is just not an adequate explanation.
#RobodebtRC
Fascinating CDPP email re a person being prosecuted for welfare fraud for 56k_ debt, which AAT1 decision discovers is a robodebt (reduce to ~ 13k), and then the CDPP realise itself the 13k is also a robodebt, discontinuing the prosecution.
I have only just now seen among the
#robodebtrc
docs what's IMO a smoking gun linking the Poniatowska/Keating decisions to the origin of
#robodebt
. In March 2015, Withnell arranged for a letter to be signed by Campbell addressed to Bromwich J, then the Dir of the CDPP, ...
Having said the above,
@NotmydebtS
and I have been made aware of several cases where class members were prosecuted and convicted for welfare crimes. However, the cases are complex and involve conduct preceding and seemingly overlapping the robodebt period. It’s cause for concern.
Nothing I can see in the evidence from the CDPP to the Commission confirms an actual conviction being recorded against a robodebtor. But it is possible that the CDPP has been unable to identify any class action members who have been convicted for offences involving robodebts.
I’m striking today to show that I value my current opportunity to devote a notional 40% of my working life to research and don’t want it to become a rare luxury. Not just for me but for the institution. And I stand with my colleagues whose working conditions are more precarious.
... you are effectively making the lives of people who are bound to contribute to the economy of the medium term -- as educated and very qualified citizens -- much harder. In many cases, their careers and 'contributions' to our communities and 'economies' are jeopardised. This ..
There were also some clarifications from the CDPP following the initial production-by-notice evidence about how many were prosecuted and how many discontinued. It's too complicated for this thread, but here is some of the Supplementary Statement:
Not many
#robodebtrc
tweets today as water’s broke at 2am and we’re in hospital. Exciting! Contractions still pretty mild (on the tocodynamometer — but sound painful!)…
#RobodebtRC
TFW your employer rejects your claim because your employer has not received a letter from your employer as required by your employer to approve the claim.
This is Keating wrongful convictions all over again. After Keating, there was some 15,000 wrongful convictions said to exist. 20 odd have been appealed. But with robodebt, we have no idea or data about how many wrongful convictions or unsound convictions exist. Abysmal.
In Lehrmann v Network Ten & Anor, the (remaining) defendant(s) relies on two defences provided under the NSW Defamation Act 2005 (NSW). I think it's worth reading the defences to get some understanding of the law, because the hearings will not elucidate them. The first ...
2. What happens now to the confidential chapter, since its sequestration by the AG was, to my understanding, conditioned on the
@NACCgovau
's ongoing investigation. If it is to remain confidential -- why? It is part of a Royal Commission.
#robodebtrc
Evidence from the witness over the last 20 minutes has been just remarkable. Secretary Campbell was likely promoted bc she was a government loyalist; Leon herself was demoted and then ultimately terminated bc she was too balanced; and so on. The earlier ...
How many were prosecuted and convicted for whole or partial ropbodebts? James Carter now reeling off several matters where the problem was picked up after charges were laid and some where sentencing was being made after a guilty plea (presumably).
Two pages from Ian Callinan AC's review of the AAT (2019) say (1) only lawyers should be appointed and (2) that the managerialist approaches to the Tribunal's administration c/o external consultants should be jettisoned. There has been no government response to the report.
Good story from
@SquigglyRick
. ‘In some ways it’s bigger then robodebt.’ I entirely agree! This is a more fundamental legal problem; and it’s been there for 17 years, and carries through to robodebts.
Centrelink used the same maths as the illegal
#robodebt
scheme to raise debts estimated in the hundreds of millions of dollars from more than 100,000 welfare recipients – shattering any illusion that defective administration was contained to one program.
@NotmydebtS
The CDPP could have prosecuted and secured a conviction without knowing whether the brief of evidence used averaged data or not. The CDPP did not, it seems, always have employer verified data when it ran its prosecutions. I think that’s clear.
Just writing blog on the
#robodebtrc
and led to recall that AAT member M Manetta was in news last yr alleging his demotion by the AAT Dep Pres was for his decisions adverse to government re robodebts. Unsurprised to find *many* of his robodebt decision featuring in RC report.
#RobodebtRC
Here we go! Misfeasance advice! This is what we've all been waiting for. Who opted-out from the settlement and wants to run the test case? I can think of no clearer indication of its runnability than this...
#RobodebtRC
Absolutely inappropriate and hubristic in the extreme for Jason McNamara to suggest that the education system is 'appalling' because they could not comprehend averaging when he and his team could not comprehend that the same process was unlawful. Cowboy rhetoric.
..., including the HELP and study assistance arrangements, and the policing and penalisation of welfare. Who did the government think that it was targeting here? One imagines that the architects really did believe that welfare recipients had nothing to give back to society...
And, of course, there's no need to fous on uni students; many people received robodebts when they were doing other things -- all robodebts are bad and all welfare recipient stereotypes are bad. But it is striking to see the intersection of the higher education system ...
The
#robodebtrc
revealed that by the time Deanna Amato filed her case against the Cth in the Fed Crt, the SG had already provided, some 48 days earlier, an opinion to the Cth. It had confirmed that debts calculated on the basis of averaging had no basis in law.
Services Australia’s systems are too complex for their lawyers — perhaps for any lawyer. I have long thought that the right legal team could sort this out. I’m beginning to think we need a new breed of interdisciplinary lawyer-programmers. Translating statute to system…
EXCLUSIVE: A Coalition-era redesign of the employment services system wrongly punished more than 1300 jobseekers, cutting them off welfare payments and leaving them without income for weeks.
@SquigglyRick
on the massive compensation bill:
#auspol
Thankfully, I'm not too exposed making such commentary, because the Commissioner effectively said the same thing. Indeed, Holmes went further to suggest that there was a nod and wink.
... has clearly occurred in the case of several accounting and law students who receive Centrelink debts and change course so as to avoid the shame of disclosing Centrelink debts on application to work in the profession. Mark Thomas covers that here:
@RonniSalt
@PaulBongiorno
What would be the relevant publication? Did Ms Higgins actually publish the allegation of the assault herself on social media or was it only disclosed to police? There would need to be a relevant publication of which she was the publisher.
@NACCgovau
... precisely in circumstances where the capacities of the
@NACCgovau
were understood to be different to those of the
@RobodebtRC
? Indeed, now that the
@NACCgovau
exists, will RCs have any jurisdictional capacity to make findings about corruption (TORs notwithstanding)?
The consultancies, of course, are one thing. They can operate in this way, as regulation does not yet reach this deeply into business practices, which, after all, are commercial in confidence. But on the other side of this transaction is a government customer.
In 2021 I wrote a detailed blog on how referrals can (and should) be made by the AAT to the Fed Crt for robodebts and other like questions under the AAT Act. Today, the
@CwealthOmb
recommended that DSS and Services Australia do just that!
#robodebtrc
Time and again I am inspired to teach law in as deep and as rigorous a way as possible when I hear of the many dozens of chief and general counsels who turned their mind to averaging but clearly came up with only convenient untruths. As frustrating as it is ...
@CrucibleOfThght
I’m surprised you might not have read up on the case of Caster Semenya, which is probably the most high profile episode involving these issues in sporting history? Beyond the biological science, Semenya’s legal challenges to CAS and other tribunals provide hundreds of pages …
... those first meetings where Morrison, Campbell and possibly Payne are first making the decision not to create legislative change. Again, I think the best reason for that is the senate numbers.
#robodebtrc
One of the most transparent articulations of the obsessive, brazen, even Freudian drive of the then-government to reduce public debt I've ever seen: 'Other than the Dept doing something *politically* silly, they don't care.' (My emphasis.) Legally silly? That's fine.
... did Ministers pressure you to make it misleading? and so is Campbell responsible for the misleading NPP? Yes, she says, because she did not notice the misleading elements. Could she herself be up for misfeasance proceedings?
#robodebtrc
Who exactly authored the marked-up version -- in which the transparent description of how the asserted debts would be calculated (fortnightly attribution from annual figure) was changed to an obscure and opaque description that 'no change' will be made?
After the
#robodebtrc
, we need to rethink the flimsy political economics and the ideological driver that made the moral and legal wrongs ‘justifiable.’ It began with ‘balancing the budget,’ which is depressing when one properly recognises that goal as the arbitrary myth it is.
Functional Finance “rejects completely” the goal of trying to balance the budget over any arbitrary period: a calendar year, a fiscal year, a string of fiscal years, a lunar year, etc. And there are non-fiscal tools available to aid in delivering on inflation goals.
@NathanTankus
…
@Mark_Butler_MP
, which were focused on taxpayer dollars, rings very glib in my ears. The focus needs to be on health care outcomes and not the potential waste in circumstances where the numbers floating about are wildly at variance.
@DrCarlHindy
@MarkLRuffalo
@PsychTimes
@nassirghaemi
But that's just a strange retrospective inquiry about what they were like as a child. Many parents in the 70s, 80 and 90s would have resisted diagnosis of hyperactive children when diagnosis was more stigmatised.
I suppose one can never really predict how the work of a Royal Commission will be received. Although completely unnecessary, I wish Commissioner Holmes good wishes today.
#robodebtrc
#RobodebtRC
Like many news items published on a Friday evening, Carter's evidence this evening seemed to escape the Commission's attention. But it shouldn't. Though played down, Carter confirmed that the CDPP have no certain tally of people criminally convicted for robodebts.
4. Though the
@NACCgovau
acknowledges that it has no powers to grant a remedy or impose a sanction on an official, are its investigations nevertheless not a means to facilitate preliminary determinations of corrupt conduct? And could these not fortify any civil actions later?
#robodebtrc
Amid a busy day of my wife's labour, I have actually had a little time to hear some of the RC when running errands! It's been a long one... Remarkable evidence from Hanks, of course.
#robodebtrc
I think I sense where this is going: it's an explanation to the effect that 'One cannot expect ministers, even those with legal training, should inquire into the statutory basis of every government initative, including those that had occurred for some time.' ...
#RobodebtRC
Is the credibility of the witness slowly transforming? Emails are read but not read; things are understood now but not then; interactions are generally hands-on but not on or at these dates. Is there a breaking point? Are only fugue-voiced concessions to be given?
The big issues, it seems, with respect to findings about Mr Porter, is that the Report virtually describes his 'satisfaction' as to the lagality of robodebt as either 'irrational' or, if one considers the alternative, non-existent. This, I think, is quite a serious finding.
The main message I have always been keen to amplify is that robodebt represents the highest sum of money paid by a government to its citizens as an effective refund in human history. Happy to be corrected but nothing is have seen comes close.