Mostly FF7, shipping and otherwise. Favor CT but a love triangle truther 🧐. Check out the Highlights tab for a growing list of my threads and opinions💭
🧵What’s set in stone can be changed: How the Re-trilogy uses Aerith and Sephiroth to explore two opposing philosophies of the meaning of “defying destiny.”
Recent comments from the FF7 Rebirth dev team have reinvigorated discussion about the role of fate/destiny and its
🧵It’s what’s on the outside that counts: How the Costa Del Sol beachwear choices establish the expectations for the romance subplots in the game for the completionist gamer outside the fandom.⬇
🧵Jealousy or Altruism?: How FF7 Rebirth reinterprets relational dynamics to help Cloud and the player build empathy.
This scene continues to stick with me for various reasons, but one of the most indelible reasons is trying to decipher Cloud’s intent and what it means for his
Man this scene is still crazy. Cloud is finally being open and vulnerable about feeling lost in the different sides of himself, going as far as to say there are multiple people inside of him, and Tifa just accepts all of him. It must be so validating for him in this moment- he’s
🧵In defense of horny CT art/fics- How the Re-trilogy era’s focus on paradoxical relational development and romantic tension inform works of sexual desire created by the cloti community.
Every once in a while I see a particular sentiment float around the fandom that highlights a
“Underneath it all, that rock solid love, friendship, history that you have with someone at such a young age that can last you through a lifetime… it’s so beautiful and rare. So I think, that’s really special and I love that about them.”
Dysfunction exists within love and
The Tifa gold saucer date erasure campaign is propped up by arguments that fundamentally undermine core plot and character development in the trilogy and assume the devs have a complete lack of respect for their own narrative design. Shout out to Shady for speaking to this!
Let's talk about 'Affection' - A mini FFVII Rebirth 🧵
Outside of the Gongaga Part 2 thread--which is comingly along nicely--I'm making content for the Cloud and Tifa celebration weekend the 6th and 7th of July, but I wanna get this off my chest now as I'm talking about it with
Shout out to Yoki- I am so sick of this narrative, especially because it is used to continually substantiate claims that delegitimize Cloud and Tifa's love story. The claim that Cloud hugs Tifa despite a "lack" of feelings for her is disingenuous and borne from a dearth of
The reason Yama mentioned the hug is that he once explained in GREAT detail the feelings while Cloud made up his mind to hug Tifa; how Cloud, who had little experience, tried to understand her feelings, felt a strong desire to comfort her, and hugged her with all his heart. (2/3
🧵There are VERY few hills I’m willing to die on concerning shipping in this fandom, but the intent of this interview is one of them.
*IN MY OPINION*, The affinity system does not create narrative incongruencies during the GS dates events. In fact, it does the opposite.
@KenMastersUSA
@mlwjrpg
Weird that you’re taking this literally and not as a deflection like it’s intended to be. Also the canonicity of CC is dubious and CAs reject everything about Aerith’s characterization in that game so why take Tifa’s characterization seriously then?
And by the way, I feel like this scene squashes the “LS scene isn’t inherently romantic” argument. Tifa has her own mini LS scene in Rebirth and the revelations she has endear her to Cloud in such a way that they would have kissed had they not been interrupted. Cloud (and the
The common thread with those that blame Tifa is handwaving away the impact that multiple acute traumatic incidents can have on your memory recall and sense of self. This is also why the Lifestream scene is just as important for Tifa as it is for Cloud. Context is important 👇🏽
there is nothing I hate more than the argument that Tifa enabled Clouds delusions. Imagine how confused Tifa must be, not remembering Cloud being there during the Nibelheim incident yet he can give an almost flawless recap of what happened. She almost died and lost a lot of━
@KenMastersUSA
@mlwjrpg
You are fundamentally misunderstanding her character if you think this is her speaking her mind with no subtext. Just go read TOTP. It makes it very clear she liked Cloud for who he was- an ordinary boy.
It is a read into her character, you’re just reading the wrong thing.
To summarize: After comparing interpretations while considering changes from the OG, scene direction, contiguous narrative development, commentary from those involved in its development, and the intent of the dates as representative of Cloud’s bond with each character, it is my
@KenMastersUSA
@mlwjrpg
It is a part of her character but TOTP (the most recent source) explains in detail how Tifa went from thinking she liked Cloud because of his aura/coolness to how she ended up liking him because of the ordinary boy he was.
It’s clear and obvious, Ken.
@KenMastersUSA
@mlwjrpg
lol this is so funny. If you were under the assumption that I didn’t know these things about Tifa, you are wrong. I mentioned providing sources because I didn’t think there was any way that you were seriously trying to make this point. I never said the behavior wasn’t present in
@KenMastersUSA
@mlwjrpg
I’d ask you to produce the source but it doesn’t matter because TOTP is the most contemporary source and it confirms what I and others in this thread are saying.
One interesting piece of support actually comes from a comment by the japanese motion capture actor for Cloud, Katsuyuki Yamazaki. Yamazaki provided his personal commentary while watching the Gongaga scene, and after the scene noticed someone in his chat made a comment about
This scene does not spark any curiosity about Cloud’s feelings towards Aerith and Zack’s relationship because of these choices made in scene direction. It’s important to note that the game does feature cuts to reactions, speakers continuing off-camera, and clear non-verbal
@tifastrfe
Some say it’s just his “fake persona” but behavior exists within the context of intent. Maybe he was trying to act super cool while flirting, but the point is him trying to flirt in the first place. Just because his “personality” might be obfuscated doesn’t mean his desires are.
When looking carefully at the arcs of Aerith and Sephirth within the theme of “defying destiny”, I am fairly certain of the message the narrative is portraying. By initially presenting the possibility of changing the literal chronology of fate, the player is intrigued by the
*reciprocal physicality*: When their non-verbal communication fails them (or simply does not suit the situation), CT share several moments of offering and reciprocating physical touch. There are more obvious examples of this like the train roll, resolution hug, and GS skywheel
Sometimes I just sit back and have to pinch myself with these little moments… we really went from interconnected blocky characters models to this- the whole party having unique idle animation for sitting in the buggy the each reflect their personalities perfectly. Crazy 🙏🏽
People have no chill when it comes to picking apart the description in the CT resolution scene, and it just exposes how much about the human experience is overlooked to fit a narrative. Everyone is primarily self-motivated and seeks to fulfill their own desires with respect for
Such an important distinction Looney makes here- The lifestream sequence is not traumatic. It is healing. There are no traumatic events that occur in the scene. it is the realization of how trauma has manifested and how people can heal through stories and truth.
Should they ADD 'that' scene to the Life Stream Sequence? | FFVII REBIRTH
Video is an excerpt of the full video!
There is an ongoing debate over when the revelation of a particular scene in FFVII Rebirth concerning Cloud should be shown and some believe the Life Stream
@KenMastersUSA
@mlwjrpg
You are stuck in your understanding of Tifa, Ken. The whole point of her character as the MSQ goes on is that she thinks this is the best way to get closer to Cloud, because this is the persona Cloud assumes at the beginning of the game. She tells him she regrets putting that
@its_lau_chyan
@seph_s_lockhart
Uh This anti CT collage is littered with counter arguments. Aerith headcanon nods, CT reflecting the main story, love between Cloud and Aerith feeling like a burden... lol.
I’m not even saying I think this way since I believe in the LT but posting this is an incredible self-own.
As a final side note, some rely on this jealousy interpretation to justify another claim: Cloud only asks Tifa if she has talked to Aerith during their GS date because he has continued to stew in his jealousy and this feeling once again guides his questions. Considering the
Now let's consider the possibility that Cloud responds out of concern without fully understanding the emotional complexity of Aerith’s feelings and accidentally oversteps in trying to help. Drawing from the same conversation, If Cloud’s “forget that loser” response is primarily
Don't think I've ever agreed more with a thread here all year. This shipping community cannot have a meaningful and nuanced conversation about the importance of Aerith's death without it turning into finger pointing and accusations of ulterior motives. I prefer CT and I have my
There are so many reasons I don't want Aerith to come back to life and it has zero to do with whether or not I like her character. Nor does it have anything to do with shipping. (If she comes back to life, I figure Zack will as well and they will get together.) The first reason⬇️
@yokikotokiku3
"Wait you're telling me THIS is what Toriyama meant in that interview where he said he was embarrassed as an older man? I thought he was disgusted by the scene!"
🙄😑
As Aerith and Cloud transition to a conversation outside, Aerith moves through her emotions and asks Cloud for his opinion on her actions. It’s after this moment that Cloud asks Aerith if she still likes Zack. Following the flow of events up to this point, there has been no
The events of Ch11 provide scenes that further enrich the “altruism” interpretation and feature Cloud processing the visceral nature of his connection with Zack, as well as the (perceived) nature of his death. While exploring Nibelheim, Cloud experiences an extended dissociation
@KenMastersUSA
@mlwjrpg
Do you understand the concept of character growth? Do you want me to list out the sequence of events that shows Tifa transition from daydreaming about an undefined hero to liking Cloud? You mischaracterize her because you act as if this evolution never happens, maybe
The arc of moments in Gongaga and Nibelheim (And ZA’s Gi Village lifestream lake connection, come to think of it,) help both Cloud and the player build empathy for the ZA connection. Finally, grasping the depth of Aerith’s complex feelings for Zack serves as a throughline that
@motokomakima
Feeling the itch to make a thread about this 🙄. It ignores how some of the story's major themes are applied (let alone direct plot development) all to try and frame Tifa as a burden.
What do these qualities tell us about these two characters? Well, their connection and relational interactions are based on a fundamental regard of consent. All of their physical touch (excluding being in danger) is either clearly telegraphed or confirmed by a secondary method of
Alright, now let’s rewind back to Gongaga and consider the other interpretation for Cloud: He is concerned for Aerith’s feelings and is acting altruistically, but misjudges how hurtful his comments end up being. As we have already covered, I believe the scene direction here
I think the aspect of the “jealous” interpretation that makes Cloud look the worst, however, is what it would mean for his following conversations with Aerith. Remember, if Cloud was jealous in Gongaga, it means his comments would have been inherently self-serving, and would have
@jammybear21
Ugh I wish I didn’t agree. I like so many things about her. She is so uplifting and has this wonderful view of life and her place in it. But this ish just kills me.
After beating the game and reflecting on its narratives, I realized that the ch8 GS date was the moment I felt the game made its statement about where “the” romance subplot was headed, and where the game wanted me to focus my attention. Of course, this moment is affinity based,
So is Cloud a jealous mess or a heavy-handed altruist in this scene? Again, there is reason to suggest Cloud could be jealous in this moment in the OG and that he had “mixed feelings” considering Zack and Aerith’s connection during the playground scene in Remake. But is jealousy
@Bich_Dingo
The jealousy/rebound kiss argument has and will always be the bottom of the barrel for bitter shippers. Like you said it both disregards the CT romance arc throughout the whole game and paints Cloud as an insincere jerk just to try to erase the intentionality of that scene.
Before I begin, I want to be clear in my intent- While I favor CT, I believe in the love triangle and this thread is not intended to invalidate CA. It is more so 1.) a review of the Zack/Aerith Gongaga scene in OG and changes made in the Retrilogy regarding the love triangle, and
Speaking of OG, let’s take a look at how it and the Re-trilogy compare as it pertains to jealousy and the plucking of nerves within the love triangle. In OG, the narrative would often go out of its way to create scenarios that pitted Aerith and Tifa against each other for the
📖In this final section of the scene, Aerith confirms with Tifa the lack of clarity after speaking to Zack’s parents. In this moment, Cloud turns to Aerith first, compelling her to “forget about that loser”, then looks towards Tifa. Both ladies react with mouths agape before
@mangakagome
tbh people who hate the CT date should probably also denounce the Yuffie and Barrett dates too cause they also basically confirm Cloud has feelings for Tifa.
What an important piece of commentary here. Introversion =/= weakness and introverts do not “need” an extrovert. This is more idealizing from those that sometimes conflate “wants” with “needs”. Introverts can fulfill their own needs, and can be supported by others introverts.
I won't address how wrong it is to say that CA understand each other more than
#cloti
here, but I will say this.
Kind reminder to CAs and similar thinkers:
-Introverts do not need saving by extroverts
-We don't all communicate the same way
-We can thrive with fellow introvers
*Intentional regard*: This is where it all starts with CT. Because Cloud and Tifa lack some tact/skill in verbal communication, they quickly develop implicit, non-verbal communication throughout the story. This subtle but highly-attuned codex of body language signals and audible
📖In OG FF7, the player could visit Gongaga Village on their way to Cosmo Canyon early in the game. This was an optional area, but players that visited were given some tidbits of lore about a town in mourning after the reactor powering the area exploded. Stopping by a certain
So, let’s consider what happened in that scene and what it could mean for Cloud’s character. Cloud is aware that Aerith still wonders about Zack but is at this point both unaware of his fate or how he and Zack are connected. Cloud has just listened to Aerith try to
If we consider his “forget about that loser” comment as primarily motivated by jealousy, it means that he is *emotionally frustrated* by Aerith’s ambiguous response (“Maybe.. He hasn’t given me a reason not to.”). If jealousy is the emotion driving Cloud’s behavior in this scene,
Both responses from Aerith are interesting here. They seem to suggest that Aerith has at the very least made peace with Zack’s lack of contact and potentially even moved on, while her teasing response is non-informative on this topic and instead opts to make light of the bubbling
This is not to say that Cloud has never experienced jealousy canonically, or even jealousy towards Zack and Aerith’s past relationship. A couple of Ultimania and developer quotes lend support to the idea that Cloud has experienced jealousy as it relates to this topic both in OG
@SixthGen2048
@KnippzCGL
@itsjohnnyff
But like... you see how it makes things worse, right? No one is forcing you to keep tearing down CT. If you don't like what you're seeing, just block and move on and you could probably save yourself the trouble of writing essays on here.
the affinity system may have initially presented were considered and addressed to avoid confusion about narrative intent. If content was irrelevant or contradictory to the story or its characters, it would have been removed or reworked. Cool?🔚
After walking with her through her most traumatic memory, Aerith delivers her speech tying together this expression of the theme in clear and obvious terms. She acknowledges the importance of life, living, and death as an essential cycle, empathizing with the party (and the
📖Now let’s jump to how this scene plays out in Rebirth. There are a couple minor differences in how the first section of the scene plays out, notably that the scene is a part of the main scenario and must be viewed. Rebirth allows us to intuit much more nuance than the OG scene-
📖When speaking with Aerith, she reminds Cloud that Zack was her first love, and explains the circumstances by which they were separated and lost contact with one another. As the conversation continues, Aerith shifts her focus to Cloud’s reaction, asking him a question (“Hey,
As we press forward into Rebirth, we are reintroduced to Sephiroth in the Nibelheim flashback as a stoic and wizened SOLDIER legend. As the flashback goes on, things change quite drastically for Sephiroth as he learns that he was the result of experiments by professor Gast and
📖Aerith opens the conversation with a more reflective and introspective tone, feeling “selfish” and questioning if she should have pursued the couple and asked about Zack. This prompts an affinity dialogue choice from the player to decide how Cloud should respond to Aerith.
@RadiantAntiHero
Look, I’m not denying Cloud has feeling for Aerith, but there is way too much assumption in this analysis. You are self-inserting based on what you think he should have said, and being very loose with body language interpretation. If he really wanted to know, he would have ⬇️
*Cloud’s possessiveness*: Cloud also experiences jealousy in regards to Tifa, though it manifests as possessiveness (expressed through anger/aggression). There are many examples in Remake as well as some in Rebirth that have Cloud denying NPCs’ jokes about spending time with
And so through Sephiroth and Aerith, this new theme of “defying destiny” is explored in two philosophically different ways. Sephiroth, haunted by the truth of his creation and the suspension of his autonomy in his past (if anyone wants to link a thread to Seph’s back story in
At the end of Remake, Sephiroth transports Cloud to the edge of creation, a location unknown to anyone but them, and sets the stage for the greatest mystery of this new story. Here, Sephiroth sheds any air of hostility and aggression, adopting a pragmatic and idealistic stance
Aerith continues, clearly explaining this perspective of integrating the parts of yourself you avoid/exile in fear of how they might come to define you- “True strength comes from our ability to forgive- to forge ahead in the hopes of making things right." This is just incredible
@Mhdfattal111Al
Like you said, there’s no explaining away Cloud and Tifa’s love story. The devs have only made it more clear so far in the Re-trilogy and are doubling down on the interwoven stories of the two ahead of the LSS in pt3.
This can't be said enough! We can't have ENOUGH threads about this topic because the devs were intentional about everything in the game but especially the GS dates. Glad to have another thread buddy on this same topic 🙏👇
Since I'm seeing a lot of misconstruing of the devs' words regarding the dates AGAIN, let's break it down one more time. Starting with this interview, there was a fear that the affinity system might not mix well with the main story. Why? Per the devs, due to DIALOGUE options.⬇️
@nitezintodreamz
One notoriously bad argument I saw was that ch9 in Rebirth was added as a way to “get this scene out of the way” and skip Tifa’s involvement in the proper LS scene so that Aerith could be the one to “save” Cloud.
Honestly couldn’t believe what I was reading.
This feels like willful myopia. Rebirth is game 2 in a trilogy and the events of Disc 2, which include multiple intimate moments between him and Tifa, are the heart of Cloud's story. Nomura explicitly stated they wanted to bring Cloud and Tifa's relationship into the foreground
@DelaBrown20
@mlwjrpg
@Criten90
@aerithsclouds
There are 10 other scenes that can take place instead of the outcome where Cloud kisses Tifa, and while some of them are slightly silly, they all make MUCH more sense in context to the material and content that the player is REQUIRED to play through in order to finish the game.
@vitaaeris
Haters will say it’s because you don’t like Aerith. Real ones will know it’s because Aerith is just a part of one of the most confusing first-watch endings of all time lol.
In Remake ch2, Sephiroth introduces himself to the player by painting a picture of a dying world that must be saved by certain means. He places this burden on Cloud, and offers a “simple” solution to throw fate off its intended course: “Run, Cloud… Run away. You have to leave…
Sephiroth: “Let us defy destiny… together.”
Sephiroth is many things at many different points during the Re-trilogy: An omen, a victim, a prophet, a vengeful spirit, a sworn enemy of all things, an impartial judge, etc. Through all his permutations, however, one message remains
@HayashiNagisa
This scene is so important because it’s what the entire basis of Cloud being profusely/acutely jealous is based on, as the Ultimania Omega description of this scene in OG says Aerith teases cloud specifically for a jealous reaction. It’s used to connect to the Remake scene where
@YuffiePookie
Reading the novel actually answers this question. Zangan, Tifa’s cat, the bedroom conversation on Junon… they’re all references to Tifa’s character/development. Also, it’s clear you missed her becoming more conscious of her people pleasing tendencies and making an effort to ⬇️
Lastly, I think it’s important to address some of the criticisms from outside the CT community and the assumption that the CT fandom is “harming” the portrayal of these characters by being “sex-obsessed”, “self-interters,” “character destroyers,” etc. We’ve already covered in
Finally, as Cloud is hurtling between worlds in chapter 14, Sephiroth reveals the “true nature of reality” and recounts the speech from the edge of creation, compelling Cloud to join him in “defying destiny” once more. One of the most defining lines here is Sephiroth urging Cloud
@KenMastersUSA
@StrawberrieLamb
@Dizzy_Shark
@mlwjrpg
...Rather than butcher the intent of that interview to try and make your point I would direct you to the words of Cloud's mocap actor, who confirmed that all the GS scenes support the story being told, and that they are not designed to conflict with one another.
@TifaTheMonk
It was crazy hearing how long they spent on the scenes, all joking about how sick of it they were by the end. It’s clear they want you to watch all dates regardless of ship. That’s why they make it so easy to do on replay. Major L for the “not in my playthrough” crowd
@RadiantAntiHero
@VesDegree
@ShinraArch
That’s weird, I must have missed Tifa’s dialogue where she was upset after her childhood crush kissed her despite his identity crisis.
@Dizzy_Shark
@integrativekola
@KenMastersUSA
@StrawberrieLamb
@mlwjrpg
“Caring about the veracity of information” and yet this was paraded around the entire CA fandom, insinuating that the creators were somehow “embarrassed” by the content of the scene they themselves created and that this scene doesn’t make sense in the story even tho CT almost
Aerith - “Every minute… every moment, matters.”
Aerith enters the story in an interesting capacity, knowing way more than she should and obfuscating her knowledge behind cryptic warnings and comments. Upon analysis of Remake and certain direct answers provided in Rebirth,
@StygianSis
I really believe this is what CA hardliners are most insecure about- new fans with no prior knowledge of the OG/compilation playing this game and being like “oh, the CT romance arc is obvious. I’m down.” imo, I see the majority of “newbies” end up shipping CT. Kinda sucks for CAs
The concept of defying destiny as a core theme of the Re-trilogy is, in my opinion, pretty obvious. This was also the opinion of many analysis videos and spoilercasts following the game’s release, tossing around the possibilities of what may be different and what might stay the
@feaedhellen
This disingenuous crusade of certain people being like “but wait, what about Tifa’s flaws! You don’t understand her if you don’t acknowledge them and attribute them as the core of every action she takes with Cloud!” Like what? You think Tifa fans of all people don’t understand
@nitezintodreamz
Girl with anxiety and trauma spends years practicing mindfulness and martial arts to be able to calm both body and mind and protect herself when in damager.
Certain people: “Tifa needs to be her own person and stop playing up the damsel in distress trope.”
🫥
Taken together, Sephiroth’s history, actions, and intentions form the basis of his motives to impose change upon other characters, the planet, and even the direction of destined events. When analyzing the Re-trilogy’s theme of defying fate, the narrative actually shows that it is
@imwarrioroflife
Hi Mark. This thread includes full scene descriptions and bidirectional analysis so it’s accessible for anyone in the fandom, new or old. It is also a comprehensive collection of data that address many angles of debate around this topic that were previously scattered across
Much later into the game, while in Shinra Tower, Sephiroth interrupts a guided tour of the history of the planet and projects a vision into Cloud’s mind. This vision is of a possible future that shows the death of his friends and the destruction of the planet by meteor. The final
In one of the more infamous “holy s***” moments in Remake, Sephiroth displays both his power over and his disregard for the planet’s protection of fate by stabbing Barret. Of course we know the whispers intervene and bring him back to life, but it’s at this moment the player
So, because the beachwear decision is so important but has the least clear connection to sidequest rigor and outcome, what influences the decisions when choosing beachwear? Well, aesthetics of course! During my playthrough I put Cloud in his “Wild Surf”, Aerith in her “Floral
Before Remake’s final fight, Aerith again expresses concern and warnings about the party’s conviction to cross over “destiny’s crossroads.” It is here Aerith confirms her anxiety about what changing fate might cause, but doubles down on the true threat Sephiroth poses to all